Worth of an IBM PS2?

[tezza]

How much would you pay for a IBM PS2 Model 30 (286). Would this machine be considered collectable?

I've got an opportunity to bid for one here at the moment. The PS2 range is of note historically as it was the machine IBM introduced in order to defeat the clone makers. The strategy didn't work of course.

I'm lukewarm about it at the moment (I'm starting to get pushed for space) and don't intend to spend much if I do grab it. Does $US20-$30 sound ok for a working unit or is that too high or too low, (it's just the base unit, not the monitor or keyboard).

[chuckcmagee]

Well, of course you have the consideration of shipping cost. I usually pay in the $10 to $15 range for misc PS/2s. I have one I purchased months and months ago that hasn't even been turned on yet :rolleyes:

[tezza]

Well, of course you have the consideration of shipping cost.

Yes, this one is local though, so it's not too much to ship. In fact I could pick it up. $15 US..ok, that's given me something to go on. Thanks.

[Terry Yager]

Given the inflation between US and NZ, that's probably in the right price range. As to future value, who knows? I say, if ya like it, grab it up for yourself. Who cares if it goes up in value, I think it'll never go down much from where it's at now.

--T

[IBMMuseum]

How much would you pay for a IBM PS2 Model 30 (286). Would this machine be considered collectable?

I've got an opportunity to bid for one here at the moment. The PS2 range is of note historically as it was the machine IBM introduced in order to defeat the clone makers. The strategy didn't work of course.

I'm lukewarm about it at the moment (I'm starting to get pushed for space) and don't intend to spend much if I do grab it. Does $US20-$30 sound ok for a working unit or is that too high or too low, (it's just the base unit, not the monitor or keyboard).

In the States I would low-ball it, but I think the 30 286 is pretty common here...

[DreadStorm]

I was looking for a 286 or 386-based MCA (microchannel) low-profile one, but I don't know much of anything about them to know what I'm looking for. It wouldn't fit into my plans at all, but it would be nice to have a general-use DOS machine that's a genuine IBM...

[tezza]

Yes, the reason why I would like to have one is because they were significant from an historic point of view These reasons are:

1. IBM attempted to set another "standard" (Micro Channel Architecture) and expected everyone to follow (they didn't).

2. Some novel aspects DID actually become standard in the PC market, like the PS2 keyboard, mouse ports, 1.44k floppy disk, 72-pin SIMM and VGA.

However, I'm not prepared to pay that much. If I see one for $10 - $20 or so around here, I'll snatch it but otherwise...

[IBMMuseum]

...1. IBM attempted to set another "standard" (Micro Channel Architecture) and expected everyone to follow (they didn't)... However, I'm not prepared to pay that much. If I see one for $10 - $20 or so around here, I'll snatch it but otherwise...

But the PS/2 Model 30 286 isn't microchannel - It's ISA. All the PS/2s with Model numbers below 50 (25, 30, 33, 35, 40) are XT/ISA bus. And leads to a trivia question of what PC models IBM had that were ISA and based on a 386DX CPU:

They didn't...

You have to get a PS/2 Model 50 or 60 to be a microchannel system based on the 286...

All of your other information is right on...

[Unknown_K]

I purchased an IBM 9595 PS/2 (P66) system with keyboard (Model M) and IBM mouse for $40 shipped last year.

[tezza]

But the PS/2 Model 30 286 isn't microchannel - It's ISA. All the PS/2s with Model numbers below 50 (25, 30, 33, 35, 40) are XT/ISA bus. And leads to a trivia question of what PC models IBM had that were ISA and based on a 386DX CPU:

They didn't...

You have to get a PS/2 Model 50 or 60 to be a microchannel system based on the 286...

All of your other information is right on...

Hmm... I didn't know that. Thanks for the info.

[IBMMuseum]

Hmm... I didn't know that. Thanks for the info.

Let me see what I can do (at least the more common) for a quick run-down:

Model 25: 8086-8MHz CPU, All-in-one (with monitor), XT 8-bit bus (2 slots)
Model 25 286: 286-10MHz, All-in-one, ISA bus (2 slots)
Model 25SX: 386SX-16 or 20MHz, All-in-one, ISA bus (3 slots)

Model 30: 8086-8MHz, XT 8-bit bus (3 slots)
Model 30 286: 286-10MHz, ISA bus (3 slots)

Model 33: 486SLC2-50MHz, ISA (1 slot), or with PCMCIA (4 slot) adapter

Model 35SX: 386SX-20MHz, ISA (3 slots)

Model 40SX: 386SX-20MHz, ISA (5 slots)

Model L40SX: 386SX-20, Laptop, ISA slots only with expansion chassis

Model 50: 286-10MHz, MCA (3 slots)
Model 50Z: 286-10MHz, MCA (3 slots)

Model N51SX: 386SX-20MHz, MCA, extra slots with dock
Model N51SLC: 386SLC-20MHz, MCA, extra slots with dock

Model 53SLC2: 486SLC2-50MHz, MCA (3 slots)

Model 55SX: 386SX-16MHz, MCA (3 slots)
*** This would be a microchannel system in the same case as the Model 30 286 ***

Model 56SX: 386SX-20MHz, MCA (3 slots)
Model 56SLC: 386SLC-20MHz, MCA (3 slots)
Model 56SLC2: 486SLC2-50MHz, MCA (3 slots)
Model 56SLC3: 486SLC3-75MHz, MCA (3 slots)

Model 57SX: 386SX-20MHz, MCA (5 slots)
Model 57SLC: 386SLC-20MHz, MCA (5 slots)
Model 57SLC2: 486SLC2-50MHz, MCA (5 slots)
Model 57SLC3: 486SLC3-75MHz, MCA (5 slots)

Model CL57SX: 386SX-16MHz, Color Laptop, MCA with dock

Model 60: 286-10MHz, MCA (8 slots)

Model 65SX: 386SX-16, MCA (8 slots)

Model 70 386: 386DX-16, 20, or 25MHz, MCA (8 slots)

EDIT: P70 386: 386DX-16 or 20MHz, MCA (2 slots), "Portable" with orange plasma screen.

EDIT: P75: 486DX-33, MCA (4(?) slots), "Portable" with orange plasma screen.

Model 80 386: 386DX-16, 20, or 25MHz, MCA (8 slots)

Model 85: 486SX, 486DX, or 486DX2, 33 or 66MHz, MCA (8 slots)

Model 90: CPU dependant on processor complex, MCA (4 slots)

Model 95: CPU dependant on processor complex, MCA (8 slots)

[tezza]

Thanks. Now I know what to bid (or not bid) on

[Chuckster_in_Jax]

I purchased an IBM 9595 PS/2 (P66) system with keyboard (Model M) and IBM mouse for $40 shipped last year.

You got a really good deal on that one! You don't see very many of these.

I looked on eBay for quite a while and couldn't find one. I finally wound up buying one from a non-eBay company for $200.00. Expensive, but in perfect condition. What a beautiful machine! It is the crown jewel in my IBM collection. Like yours, it has the P66 processor board (IBM calls this a planar).

[IBMMuseum]

You got a really good deal on that one! You don't see very many of these.

I looked on eBay for quite a while and couldn't find one. I finally wound up buying one from a non-eBay company for $200.00. Expensive, but in perfect condition. What a beautiful machine! It is the crown jewel in my IBM collection. Like yours, it has the P66 processor board (IBM calls this a planar).

For the 8590/9590/8595/9595 the processor board itself was actually called a "complex" by IBM (the "planar" for these system is what the complex plugged into). Specifically the P66 complex is called the 'Q'. The center character of the submodel told what the CPU originally was on the unit for everything but the very early PS/2 models.

To find information on the various "complexi" (a PS/2 hobbiest term) there is: http://www.gilanet.com/ohlandl/complexes/Complex_ID.html (From Louis Ohland, hosted by the company I work for)...

Yes, the 8595/9595 systems are nice, at last count I had something like 18 of them. Believe it or not, many of those I got for close to free. But we're talking about systems that usually were a 486 at the very minimum, so not really "vintage" yet.

[IBMMuseum]

Thanks. Now I know what to bid (or not bid) on

As commented, the 55SX was very common and in the same case (with minor changes, to handle the different mounting of MCA adapters as opposed to ISA) as the Model 30 286. So was the Model 53SLC2, for a little higher performance and the ability to more easily use common IDE drives. But the 53 is quite a bit more rare.

The 56/57 and 76/77 models are also nice, with a number of variations. You may have seen close model numbers having similiar specs, done that way for a reason. Early on it was the desktop/tower versions (50/60, 55/65, 70/80, 90/95), later the smaller desktop (considered "3x3" for number of drive bays/adapter slots), larger desktop ("5x5"), and sometimes a tower version ("8x8").

Most notably the 3x3/5x5/8x8 was done for the two different versions of each the 9576, 9577, and 9585 (in the same case as an 8595/9595)...

Look at more of the root pages of the directory I mentioned on this thread to get more information...

[Chuckster_in_Jax]

Just thought I would include some helpful links for information about the IBM PS/2 computers.

The Ardent Tool of Capitalism has a wealth of information about most of the PS/2 series. Their link is:

http://ohlandl.ipv7.net/

If you ever get a PS/2, you will need the reference disks (setup disks) and diagnostic disks. They can be found here:

http://members.tripod.com/~ps2page/

[IBMMuseum]

Just thought I would include some helpful links for information about the IBM PS/2 computers.

The Ardent Tool of Capitalism has a wealth of information about most of the PS/2 series. Their link is:

http://ohlandl.ipv7.net/...

But the webspace my company provides is about the only spot Louis actively updates, the rest are mostly mirrors that have been put up by others and may be a little out of date...

"Their" ("The Ardent Tool of Capitalism") is all of one person, but with many other contributors, most from the newsgroup comp.sys.ibm.ps2.hardware...

Drop on by...

[billdeg]

...but as far as *value* goes, PS/2's are barely worth the associated shipping prices. It's best to pick them up locally. The original models (30, 50, 60) would be among the most valuable.

Because they're "new" vintage computers you'd need the original boxes, software, reference disks, etc. to get anywhere close to $250.

[IBMMuseum]

...but as far as *value* goes, PS/2's are barely worth the associated shipping prices. It's best to pick them up locally. The original models (30, 50, 60) would be among the most valuable.

Because they're "new" vintage computers you'd need the original boxes, software, reference disks, etc. to get anywhere close to $250.

Agreed, unless some rare version (35SX? Nope. 35SLC2? How much?) or containing a rare part (I got a nice 9585 'X' at a good price on eBay, with three expensive voicemail cards inside as a surprise). But for all of my IBM systems I like the fact that they were workhorses somewhere (my Industrial IBM of the same vintage as PS/2 was at Johnson Space Center) and in many cases saved from destruction somehow. How many laypeople (that is, other than us) save away all of the original packing after buying a system?

[billdeg]

The PS/2 has a special place for me because the PS/2 Model 25 was the first computer I bought with my own money. Also when I was working at IBM as an intern the first of the PS/2's were introduced. I remember opening the first batch of boxes with people gathered around, installing Windows 286 and Windows 386, figuring out printer drivers, config sys' and so on. The AS/400 was also introduced during the same 4 month period, I have commented about this before won't repeat.

Anyway I am still realisticabout PS/2's market value. I think what holds back their value is that for many they're associated with the "computer you had a work", if you were at DuPont or a bank, etc. in the late 80's early 90's. Not as fond of a memory as playing games *after* work on your family Amiga or Atari.

In the future, the PS/2 will be known for reliability and that will enhance their standing. There will still be working PS/2's 50 years from now.

As far as who saves their boxes, you never know. That's what makes boxed systems more valuable. Personally I never saved boxes, but I do get donations of computers in their original boxes. That might be an interesting thread, how many *boxed* systems do you have?

[SwedaGuy]

Up until a year or so ago, I still had 5 or 6 PS/2s running. I only pulled them out of service because we've downsized. Since they had no operation problems, I've just stuffed them in storage until I need them again...

But I agree, I could run them for the next 50 years...

[Micom 2000]

PS/2s were my main love for many years and I still have a considerable number of all the models as well as some rarer PS/1s such as my 2011 and 2021, also some less interesting 2033s.

My first PS/2, fittingly, was an 8580DX, IBMs first MCA VGA offering which I lugged for a few blocks before managing to find a taxi. It was also the vehicle of my first real contact with the Internet since before that it was secondary contact, either thru a BBS or Free-net which allowed relays between the Inet and such as an Atari ST or an XT. Even with the MCA and ESDI problems it was to me a powerful computer. I later acquired an 8560 which I canabalized for it's ESDI for a 2nd HD for my 80. At one time I had 3 80s and now have 2 as
well as the 60AT all with thier imposing tower case, the stabilizing "feet" and the handle with also the warning about their weight, 60lbs.(?) I was amazed at their screwdriver-less disassembly design and their rugged construction (still am). It is still my favorite computer of all time (next to my Atari Mega ST whose attraction was mainly musical and the GUI).

I spent much time on the Toronto IBM BBS on the forum and downloading files, learning as much as possible about it and later joined the helpful friendliness and humor of the PS/2 usenet group with Peter Wendt and Louis Ohland and others which was so different from most of the other groups such as the hostile Apple or Amiga groups, and even the Atari ST group. It became my home for many years. Coupled with Scott Muellers Upgrading and Repairing PCs, it was a great place for learning about computers.

I have collected most of the MCA models as listed by IBMMuseum At one time I also knew
the meaning of the submodel #s which usually referred to speed, ram. and HDD size.
IBM was VERY COOL MON !

IBMMuseum listed much of the PS/2 models but there were some special models which were unique in their architechture. Aside from the 8580 which I will always regard as the "Papa" MCA, there were 2 which stick out in my mind the 8557(or 56) which had SCSI drives and the 8570 which had the fastest PIA of any computer of that time. Museum can correct me on this. The other thing was XGA which had better graphics than most computers of the time with 2 megs(wow) of video memory. I also had a lust to acquire a Piper Sound card which I never did and still want since none of my MCAs have a sound card. :^{

This makes me want to put my 8590 bacK front and center in my workstation group and try once more to get OS2 Warp3 hooked up to the internet. Part of why I gave up on OS/2.
From what I remember there was an upgrade floating around PS/2 circles but IBM didn't want it interferring with their corporate customer server business. From what i know Warp 4 no longer has a problem with TTP or whatever.

Lawrence

Lawrence

[IBMMuseum]

...My first PS/2, fittingly, was an 8580DX, IBMs first MCA VGA offering which I lugged for a few blocks before managing to find a taxi..

PS/2s, except for the very high up (like the Model 95s, which had the display adapter actually as an adapter) and very low (8086 versions of the Model 25 and Model 30, which had the sub-VGA video called MCGA) had at least VGA on the main planar...

...there were 2 which stick out in my mind the 8557 (or 56) which had SCSI drives...

The 8556 and 8557 are based on the Intel 386SX or IBM 386SLC CPU. The 9556 and 9557 are based on the IBM 486SLC2 or 486SLC3 CPU. Both types had a built-in SCSI controller on the planar. Other models that had planar SCSI were the P75 (a Portable thicker than the P70, which I think I forgot to list on my chart), a version of the Model 76 & 77, and both models of Model 85...

A few other PS/2 models had planar IDE controllers...

Once IBM got out of the "DBA ESDI" era, SCSI subsystems were pretty common on the PS/2s...

[Unknown_K]

Are there any "common" sound cards for the MCA PS/2? I have a couple slots left in my 9595 and want to get a sound card and maybe a M-Motions capture card if I can find them cheap enough.

Also anybody have the wiring diagram to convert that 9 pin tokenring connection to RJ-45 to be used on a tokenrig hub?

[tezza]

Let me see what I can do (at least the more common) for a quick run-down:

Model 25: 8086-8MHz CPU, All-in-one (with monitor), XT 8-bit bus (2 slots)
Model 25 286: 286-10MHz, All-in-one, ISA bus (2 slots)
Model 25SX: 386SX-16 or 20MHz, All-in-one, ISA bus (3 slots)
Model 30: 8086-8MHz, XT 8-bit bus (3 slots)
Model 30 286: 286-10MHz, ISA bus (3 slots)
Model 33: 486SLC2-50MHz, ISA (1 slot), or with PCMCIA (4 slot) adapter
Model 35SX: 386SX-20MHz, ISA (3 slots)
Model 40SX: 386SX-20MHz, ISA (5 slots)
Model L40SX: 386SX-20, Laptop, ISA slots only with expansion chassis
Model 50: 286-10MHz, MCA (3 slots)
Model 50Z: 286-10MHz, MCA (3 slots)
Model N51SX: 386SX-20MHz, MCA, extra slots with dock
Model N51SLC: 386SLC-20MHz, MCA, extra slots with dock
Model 53SLC2: 486SLC2-50MHz, MCA (3 slots)
Model 55SX: 386SX-16MHz, MCA (3 slots)
*** This would be a microchannel system in the same case as the Model 30 286 ***
Model 56SX: 386SX-20MHz, MCA (3 slots)
Model 56SLC: 386SLC-20MHz, MCA (3 slots)
Model 56SLC2: 486SLC2-50MHz, MCA (3 slots)
Model 56SLC3: 486SLC3-75MHz, MCA (3 slots)
Model 57SX: 386SX-20MHz, MCA (5 slots)
Model 57SLC: 386SLC-20MHz, MCA (5 slots)
Model 57SLC2: 486SLC2-50MHz, MCA (5 slots)
Model 57SLC3: 486SLC3-75MHz, MCA (5 slots)
Model CL57SX: 386SX-16MHz, Color Laptop, MCA with dock
Model 60: 286-10MHz, MCA (8 slots)
Model 65SX: 386SX-16, MCA (8 slots)
Model 70 386: 386DX-16, 20, or 25MHz, MCA (8 slots)
EDIT: P70 386: 386DX-16 or 20MHz, MCA (2 slots), "Portable" with orange plasma screen.
EDIT: P75: 486DX-33, MCA (4(?) slots), "Portable" with orange plasma screen.
Model 80 386: 386DX-16, 20, or 25MHz, MCA (8 slots)
Model 85: 486SX, 486DX, or 486DX2, 33 or 66MHz, MCA (8 slots)
Model 90: CPU dependant on processor complex, MCA (4 slots)
Model 95: CPU dependant on processor complex, MCA (8 slots)

So many models, and so little money to buy any of them :wink:

[IBMMuseum]

...Also anybody have the wiring diagram to convert that 9 pin tokenring connection to RJ-45 to be used on a tokenring hub?

They're called "media converters", and I have some. The "hub"-like device with Token Ring is a "MAU" or "CAU". It's an interesting concept compared to Ethernet, but it lost in the end mainly because of price.

[IBMMuseum]

So many models, and so little money to buy any of them :wink:

I've got at least two of every distinct model or version, sometimes painfully a couple dozen too. There is current work still being done on software angles for them, like improving drivers for both the SCSI and XGA-2 adapters. If I had more time there is about three major, feasible projects I would work on for them. Soonest time that is going to happen now (with a family) is if I become a lottery winner.

On the microchannel side it is very cool being able to find the exact motherboard and CPU you are running on in software, and all of the installed adapters. Each microchannel planar version (other companies called it a "motherboard") has a somewhat unique value able to be queried. In the cases where models shared the same planar, but had different risers, you can also check the number of microchannel "slots" present.

[Micom 2000]

It would appear that the VCF has it's own Peter Wendt and hopefully as indulgent. While I knew you were very IBM knowledgeable I was unaware that you were also a PS/2 afficionada. Know where I could acquire a Piper sound card at a reasonable price or even trade for an ATI Ultrapro Mach 32 video card ? I also have a couple of XGA2 cards. All boxed NOS. Also some MCA memory cards.

Is there a master IBM MCA FRU list available somewhere ? IIRC Louis or one of the MCA mafia also used to maintain a MCA card identifier section. Is that still in existence ? Yeah I know, Google is your friend , but since I am in write mode ......

In going thru my PS/2 box I ran across what I believe is a 5.25 fdd. IBM FRU64F4102. It has an IDE connector and 2 buttons on the front. Perhaps 1 of those is for ejecting a disk on an unpowered drive like with the Macs. I can't imagine why I didn't install it in one of my PS/2s. ISTR it was a major PIA to install a 5.25 fdd in an MCA. Any insight into this ?

Thanks,

Lawrence

[IBMMuseum]

It would appear that the VCF has it's own Peter Wendt and hopefully as indulgent. While I knew you were very IBM knowledgeable I was unaware that you were also a PS/2 afficionad[o]...

[Changed the term to a masculine (and more common) form] I'm nowhere close to Peter's capabilities. In fact the lead graphic Louis is using right now (http://www.gilanet.com/ohlandl/) could pointedly be referring to me ("What Have YOU Done for MCA Lately?"). At least Peter has a more valid excuse of health issues close by him (if I were to say more I am overstepping my bounds) to take the blame for online inactivity (I'm still online, just elsewhere).

BTW, Peter's page is at: http://www.mcamafia.de/mcapage0/mcaindex.htm

[Micom 2000]

Ahh I asked too many questions but one is in the Ist Que if you could help me, IBMMuseum.
.................................................. .................................................
In going thru my PS/2 box I ran across what I believe is a 5.25 fdd. IBM FRU64F4102. It has an IDE connector and 2 buttons on the front. Perhaps 1 of those is for ejecting a disk on an unpowered drive like with the Macs. I can't imagine why I didn't install it in one of my PS/2s. ISTR it was a major PIA to install a 5.25 fdd in an MCA. Any insight into this ?
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
Are there any restraints connecting this drive to a PS/2 or any other MS clone ? It appears as a different creature from most 5.25 drives with it's IDE plug. Do you know this drive ?

Lawrence

[Unknown_K]

They're called "media converters", and I have some. The "hub"-like device with Token Ring is a "MAU" or "CAU". It's an interesting concept compared to Ethernet, but it lost in the end mainly because of price.

I have an MAU , some 9 pin connectors and an RJ45 kit to make cables, just need to know what wires go where.

All of my ISA 4/16 TR cards have RJ45, the IBM 9595 has the older 9 pin port and so do some Mac Nubus cards. I have normal ethernet on the 9595 as well, mostly I just wanted to see how well 16Mb tokenring compares to 10Mb ethernet since I never used TR anywhere.