What is "The Best Keyboard Ever Made"?

[Mr.Amiga500]

I know the IBM Modem M is widely considered the best keyboard ever made. I've tried one and it is very nice. I'm wondering if there were other keyboards from that era or earlier that were even better, but nobody talks about them because they were on an obscure computer or terminal that wasn't popular. Hopefully somebody here has experience with the old and unusual computers and terminals of the 1970s and early 1980s. (I know there were lots of old crap keyboards too)

In my (very limited) experience so far, it seems the order goes something like this (ignoring crap keyboards):

buckling spring - IBM Model M (and variations)
Alps switch - SGI (and others)
Cherry switch - Amiga 1000
Mitsumi - Amiga 3000 (used to type this), Atari 1200XL

I'm especially interested in the old keyboards with keys made out of thick shiny plastic (usually black or brown like the Atari 1200XL). Was there an old keyboard with the IBM Model M feel - or better - but with thick high-quality plastic keys? (did any have metal keys??)

[Trixter]

The only keyboard I've ever used that was nicer than a buckling-spring model was split in half and put at the ends of two arms of an ergonomic chair, similar to this: http://www-ksl.stanford.edu/people/kpfleger/ergo/

Granted, the chair I tested was $1200 (in 1993!) but boy was it amazing. You just sit down and the data flows from your fingers.

[Mr.Amiga500]

Granted, the chair I tested was $1200 (in 1993!) but boy was it amazing. You just sit down and the data flows from your fingers.

That's interesting, but reaching for the mouse would probably be tedious - unless it had a built in trackball! Ooh... the ultimate would be a split buckling spring keyboard with thick 1970's style plastic keys (colour coded) and a built-in large trackball - on a comfortable firm leather chair. With a setup like that, you could sit back and control the universe. (...with a sly, sinister look on your face, you rub your hands and cackle with delight at your devious plans...:twisted:)

[willowmoon93]

What?!?? No love for the keyboard of the Sinclair ZX-81 (T/S 1000) ???? ;)

[vwestlife]

buckling spring - IBM Model M (and variations)
The Model M was actually not the best from IBM. It had a buckling-spring mechanism on top of rubber-dome key switches. The older 83-key XT and 84-key AT keyboards used a buckling-spring mechanism on top of capacitive keyswitches. This gives a much more crisp and responsive feel.

There are five different main ways to design a keyboard, and they all had their own distinct feel:

Capacitive keyswitch: TRS-80, Tandy 1000/2000, classic Macintosh, Atari 1200XL, and many others in the '80s. Because the contact is done electrically, not mechanically, there is no "snap" to the key feel. Some sound extremely "clunky" (TRS-80, early Macintosh) due to mechanical reverberation of the whole keyboard unit. The stiffness of the springs varied widely; some were very light (early Tandy 1000), giving a harsh feeling of "banging away on a board." Others attempted to soften the feel by putting sponge below the keys, giving an expectedly spongey feel.

Capacitive keyswitch with buckling spring: vintage IBM, up through the 84-key AT keyboard. Extremely crisp tactile feel, loud and clickly but also light to the touch. Tough as a Sherman tank, precise as a Swiss watch. :)

Rubber dome keyswitch: became extremely common '90s PC clones, now virtually universal on desktop keyboards. The rubber dome collapses when you hit it and then pops back up when you release the key, giving the infamous "mushy" feel.

Rubber dome keyswitch with buckling spring: IBM/Lexmark 101-key Model M, plus some relabeled OEM versions (such as early '90s Dell). Clicky and tactile, but also heavy on the fingers, due to the added force needed to collapse the rubber dome.

Mechanical keyswitch: many '80s PC clones, Northgate & ALPS keyboards, etc. "Snappy" but also a bit heavy to the touch. The same design as a mechanical leaf switch, used as PC case reset buttons, refrigerator door light switches, and all sorts of other uses.

This is my IBM AT keyboard. I use with a Compaq PIII-866. :)

http://i3.tinypic.com/116klzl.jpg

[Vlad]

It had a buckling-spring mechanism on top of rubber-dome key switches. lol wut? Are you sure about that? I could have sworn the Model M was entirely mechanical. Mike! Little help? :p

[Mr.Amiga500]

@vwestlife

Thanks for the interesting detailed post. :) I think your keyboard is the one I actually tested, not the Model M. So I guess that's the one I should be looking for. What if you need F11 or F12 though?

I suppose the fact that your keyboard is diesel makes it louder than if it was a gasoline powered keyboard. :D

[Erik]

lol wut? Are you sure about that? I could have sworn the Model M was entirely mechanical. Mike! Little help? :p

Every Model M I've ever seen (and I've owned dozens) has been a pure buckling spring design. Not a rubber dome in the lot. . .

[vwestlife]

Every Model M I've ever seen (and I've owned dozens) has been a pure buckling spring design. Not a rubber dome in the lot. . .
There is a definite difference in feel between it and the older XT/AT keyboards, though.

Even IBM typewriters had a change in keyboard feel when they apparently switched from the XT/AT-type design to the Model M-type design sometime in the mid- to late '80s.

[Erik]

There is a definite difference in feel between it and the older XT/AT keyboards, though.

If there is it's fairly slight. I've been using IBM PC keyboards from 1981 forward and have numerous examples in my collection. Aside from some basics (keyboard layout, mostly) the overall feel is pretty much the same for all of them.

If anything the Model M keyboards have a slightly lighter touch.

[closetofmysteries]

I learned to type on a manual typewriter (because we couldn't afford a computer when I was 10... I'd type my basic programs in at home to run on the Atari 800 at school!) so I've always appreciated a keyboard with a distinct throw.

I spent about 6 years on an Apple //e keyboard, where I honed my typing. But when I got to university, I found what for me was the best keyboard ever: the Sun 3/60. Just something about how much force it took to bang on that keyboard made me a much more productive typist.

Oh, and the control key was in the right place, of course! Perfect for emacs.

I went to work for Sun for a few years after that - they had just come out with the Sun4 keyboards, that had a shift lock (like most "modern" keyboards) but at least they did have a "unix localization" you could order to get the control key back in the right place.

A few years ago, I found the "Happy Hacking Keyboard Lite II" which I got for all my home and office machines. Its compact, but has a really good throw and feel. But for christmas, my wife bought me a "Das Keyboard II" - its all black with mechanical switches, and I'm typing like a maniac on it. Very nice keyboard, although it drives the people down the hall mad when I'm working...

Cheers,
--sma

[Floppies_only]

I know the IBM Modem M is widely considered the best keyboard ever made. I've tried one and it is very nice. I'm wondering if there were other keyboards from that era or earlier that were even better, but nobody talks about them because they were on an obscure computer or terminal that wasn't popular.

The keyboard that I like the best is for Macintoshes with ADB connectors, i.e.: 68k machines like the SE or Classic. It is called the power user 105. I have two of these. The one that I like has the lightest touch I've ever felt on a keyboard. The keys give an audible click to indicate funtion.

But the bad thing about this keyboard is that I make a lot of mistakes when I type with it. I wish I knew why, or how to not do that. It would be a joy to compose with otherwise.

Sean

[vwestlife]

If there is it's fairly slight. I've been using IBM PC keyboards from 1981 forward and have numerous examples in my collection. Aside from some basics (keyboard layout, mostly) the overall feel is pretty much the same for all of them.

If anything the Model M keyboards have a slightly lighter touch.
OK, I had the right idea but I got the specifics wrong. The older XT/AT keyboards do indeed use a buckling spring mechanism on top of a capacitance contact switch. The 101-key Model M uses a buckling spring mechanism on top of a rubber membrane sheet switch, not a rubber dome switch. The rubber membrane in the Model M slightly muffles the metallic clacking of the springs and gives the keys a bit of "give" to the touch.

This web page has detailed cutaway photos of exactly what makes a Model M keyboard tick, and also briefly explains the difference between it and the older XT/AT keyboards:
http://park16.wakwak.com/~ex4/kb/tech_bucklingspring_e.htm

http://park16.wakwak.com/~ex4/kb/tech/bucklingspring_mov.gif

[Mr.Amiga500]

@closetofmysteries

The Sun 3/60 keyboard looks interesting. Was it "clicky" like the IBMs or did it have Alps or Cherry switches?

@Floppies_only

The "Power User 105" causes you to type inaccurately? Is it the layout or is the touch so light that you accidentally depress keys? I like "light" touch (like the Amiga 1000), but I don't like "loose". If the "Power User 105" is like the Amiga 1000 keyboard, but "clicky", I'd probably love it. (I still want that 70's thick dark plastic though)


As for the "rubber vs. spring", there are cases where rubber is actually better. On Amiga keyboards, the spring ones (A500, A4000) are too stiff and increase in upward pressure the more you press (not buckling spring, but sprung keys). Other Amiga keyboards (A3000 and I think A1000, A2000) use a "rubber cup" in place of the spring and keypresses require much less pressure. Keys still have individual switches and it's not "rubber dome". (the Amiga spring keyboards also use membrane instead of PCB)

[Yzzerdd]

I think it's about that time for me to toss in my $0.02.

I understand where Floppies_only is coming from about how the P.U. 105 slows him down. I've never used one, but the concept is still the same for me. When I change between keyboards (school's Acers, Dad's Gateway, My iMac, my vintage machines, etc) there are minute differences that throw me off to the point that I am hitting wrong keys. Just a few seconds of focus and I am good again. Sometimes, I have to scoot my keyboard to the left or right to get myself into the correct position. It is the minute changes that change everything.

I personally prefer the PC/XT and PC/AT keyboards over all. I've never used a PC/AT keyboard, but own an original keyboard used on the PC. I love the clickyness of it. I personally get the highest WPM on an old IBM PC keyboard. Granted, it makes people all angry when I get into a long typing session on my IBM.

When I move, I'd like to get my hands on a PC/AT keyboard. I'd like to get my hands on a different Y2K Compaq that is slightly faster as well to go along with they keyboard. Well, my "to buy" list is a long one, and is totally halted by the move.

--Ryan

P.S. PC/XT= Personal Computer eXtended just as PC/AT= Personal Computer Advanced Technology. Seems that is what it says on the sticker, I use "PC/XT" and "PC/AT" to describe them. I am not saying "PC and XT" or "PC and AT." Keep it in mind, probably the last time I'll slip this note in a message.

[Vlad]

I've logged my fastest typing times on a Model M, but for some strange reason I kinda like laptop keyboards. The only thing I hate is when they change the layout. Like move the page up and down keys and the Home End keys somewhere else. As someone who writes a lot, that really gets annoying fast when editing.

[Jorg]

I am a big Model M fan (I type this on a 1993 model that is with me for 15 yrs now).
Before I had an older one, now being used at one of my vintage pc's, as it has the DIN connector.

The only other keyboard that at least stood out from the rest was the one from an HP Vectra 286/12, that I used around the end of the 80's.
Totally different, but also nice, although I prefer the model M by far.

http://www.hpmuseum.net/image.php?file=119

[Anonymous Coward]

Do all of the model M keyboards use the rubber dome? I heard that the earlier model M keyboards and the later model M keyboards are completely different, and I can confirm this since I own both late 80's model M and early-mid 90's model M. I've taken apart both XT-83 keyboards and early model Ms on many occasions and they both seem to use capacitive keyswitch with buckling spring. I never saw any rubber domes in there...it's been a while though, maybe my memory is bad.

[vwestlife]

Do all of the model M keyboards use the rubber dome? I heard that the earlier model M keyboards and the later model M keyboards are completely different, and I can confirm this since I own both late 80's model M and early-mid 90's model M. I've taken apart both XT-83 keyboards and early model Ms on many occasions and they both seem to use capacitive keyswitch with buckling spring. I never saw any rubber domes in there...it's been a while though, maybe my memory is bad.
Read my correction above. ;) The Model M uses a rubber membrane sheet; the XT/AT keyboards use capacitive contact.

Push and hold a key down on the Model M, then try to push it down with more force -- you can feel the rubber squish a little. Do the same thing on an XT/AT keyboard and there is no squish because there is no rubber down there. :)

[Mr.Amiga500]

I just got a clicky 1986 IBM Model M and an even clickier IBM AT keyboard. I must admit I'm a little disappointed. I thought an IBM clicky keyboard was "the mother of all keyboards". It is clicky and that's good I suppose, but keypresses require a little too much pressure. The case and the keys themselves are not the thick solid plastic I expected. They're thicker plastic than modern keyboards, but not compared to other keyboards of that era.


Edit: Now that I've had a couple days to get used to it, I now love the IBM AT keyboard! Out of 20 vintage keyboards I've tested, it feels the best - and it's definitely better than the Model M.

[Vlad]

I really like my Model M and all but anymore it kinda gets on my nerves. Lately I've been using my Sun keyboard which isn't as loud and just as easy to type with. Whats kinda interesting about it is it has the Super button and right click button whatever thats called but they're blank. Yay for OS independent keyboards.

[Half-Saint]

Interesting that I noticed this thread only now.. as it happens, I started a multi-part article about keyboards yesterday (see signature). Might provide for some interesting reading when it's finished!

Mr.Amiga, you get used to having to push the keys harder very fast. I love my Model M and I now own three of them :) There are also other great keyboards for example Northgate OmniKey Ultra or OmniKey Plus. Another excellent keyboard is the Apple Extended Keyboard II. You can use one on a PC with the help of a ADB to USB converter.

There's also a number of newly made keyboards that use micro switches, just to name a few: Unicomp, Deck, Scorpius M10, Majestouch, CVT Avant Prime, Das Keyboard II/III etc. The problem with most of those is that they cost $100+.

Cheers
SainT

[per]

Have anybody here used "Key-Tronic" keyboards (popular at least in Norway before 1995)? I think it uses rubber membrane thecnology. Each key is mounted on a plastic cylinder with a rubber underlayer. Each time a key is pressed, a pole pushes down the rubber layer. The keys have to be pushed down as far as on the PC/XT keyboards. I've not opened it completely up, so I haven't examined completely. They're not "Clicky" at all.

[linemanduke]

Have anybody here used "Key-Tronic" keyboards (popular at least in Norway before 1995)? I think it uses rubber membrane technology. Each key is mounted on a plastic cylinder with a rubber underlayer. Each time a key is pressed, a pole pushes down the rubber layer. The keys have to be pushed down as far as on the PC/XT keyboards. I've not opened it completely up, so I haven't examined completely. They're not "Clicky" at all.

I had one for my pc jr it was weird look like a remote on the inside. Little piece of metal tape on a piece of foam (which had deteriorated).

I love my model m, it's a later model from when they replaced the computer at my school in 96. I like the keyboard on my toshiba 400cdt the most though. Its not that it make noise or any thing like that it's just the right size for my big hands and fingers unlike this little keyboard on this think pad I'm using now

[carlsson]

Have heard of? Key Tronic keyboards are the only ones I use, both at work and home. However, some models are more squishy than others. I like those with a distinct touch.

[per]

I realized that KeyTronic was using the rubber dome meckanism, the only difference is that the rubber used is not as soft as on most recent keyboards.

Too bad I broke my DIN > PS2 adaptor, one of the pins broke, so I have to replace the PS2 plug.

[vwestlife]

I really like my Model M and all but anymore it kinda gets on my nerves. Lately I've been using my Sun keyboard which isn't as loud and just as easy to type with. Whats kinda interesting about it is it has the Super button and right click button whatever thats called but they're blank. Yay for OS independent keyboards.
You might like a Tandy Enhanced Keyboard. It uses the same buckling spring mechanism as IBM, but the touch is noticeably lighter and the clicking is much quieter. It is basically equivalent to IBM/Lexmark's "library quiet" version of the Model M which they offered but did not market widely. It was Tandy's standard-issue 101-key keyboard (with PS/2 plug) from the late '80s through mid '90s.

[modem7]

Have heard of? Key Tronic keyboards are the only ones I use, both at work and home. However, some models are more squishy than others. I like those with a distinct touch.
The Key Tronic keyboards are my favourites, and I too use them both at work and at home.
Quite a few keyboards were made for various companies by Key Tronic. My preferred Key Tronic keyboard is the Honeywell SpaceMate (has soft touch).

[vwestlife]

Quite a few keyboards were made for various companies by Key Tronic. My preferred Key Tronic keyboard is the Honeywell SpaceMate (has soft touch).
Honeywell also had a strange mouse in the late '90s which was neither roller-ball nor optical. It had a unique way of sensing motion which I have never seen used since then.

[Half-Saint]

Funny thing is, KeyTronic are about the only rubber dome keyboards that I ever liked. I used one at my last job. I'm currently using a Logitech Internet 350 keyboard at work and it sucks big time. It's so mushy you wouldn't believe it! Disgusting.

SainT

[Vlad]

Just came across my black KeyTronic the other day and used it for a bit on the work bench. I'd use it full time but I can't get over that backspace key. Its one of the ones thats only the size of a letter key.

[carlsson]

By the way, has anyone seen those Microsoft branded keyboards lacking the INSERT key? The layout is basically the standard one, but the DELETE key (not backspace) is twice as high as usually, and INSERT is missing completely. I wrote about it on this forum before, perhaps in the Off Topic area because it clearly isn't a vintage keyboard. I'm still curious who came up with that design, in particular as the keyboard is sprinkled with tons of extra buttons for e.g. Windows use (open web browser, play music, go to control panel etc).

[Mr.Amiga500]

Mr.Amiga, you get used to having to push the keys harder very fast. I love my Model M and I now own three of them :)

I think you're right! I am starting to get used to it. Maybe my fingers were tired that day or something, but today it feels fine. I think I like the AT keyboard best.

Another excellent keyboard is the Apple Extended Keyboard II. You can use one on a PC with the help of a ADB to USB converter.

Yes, that's what I've heard. I just got the "Apple Keyboard" (M0116) and it feels nice - similar to the Amiga 1000 (unlike the "Apple Keyboard II" (M0487), which is utter crap). I assume the "Apple Extended Keyboard II" must be similar to the M0116 - except with extra keys.


Does anybody know when (and why) the key text moved from the centre of keys into one corner of the key? On computer keyboards - mostly before 1984, the letters and numbers on the key are large and centred. Later keyboards usually have much smaller text in the upper left of the key (or on Apple, lower left). I assume it's so people can move their fingers slightly to see what key they're pressing, but I think it's pretty stupid.

I like the old style - thick shiny black plastic keys with large centred white text. You can get modern keyboards with large centred text (on cheap dull plastic), but it's for the visually impared so arrows and controls (and all fine detail) are replaced with stupid short form text.

[per]

I just repaired my Adaptor today, the broken pin was the GND pin. Now I can use my old AT keyboards on my modern PC!

[vwestlife]

By the way, has anyone seen those Microsoft branded keyboards lacking the INSERT key? The layout is basically the standard one, but the DELETE key (not backspace) is twice as high as usually, and INSERT is missing completely. I wrote about it on this forum before, perhaps in the Off Topic area because it clearly isn't a vintage keyboard. I'm still curious who came up with that design, in particular as the keyboard is sprinkled with tons of extra buttons for e.g. Windows use (open web browser, play music, go to control panel etc).
That's the "new" Microsoft layout. They moved Insert to Fn+Print Screen and Scroll Lock to Fn+Pause. (Yes, an "Fn" key on a desktop keyboard -- shades of the PCjr! :eek: ) That makes Print Screen triple-duty since IBM already moved SysRq to Alt+Print Screen back when they first created the 101-key layout!

http://i12.tinypic.com/82t000x.png

And Apple has killed the Insert key, too.

http://adjectivenoun.org/gallery2/d/59806-2/Apple+Keyboard+Fn.jpg

Apparently there has already been some backlash because many keyboards with the new layout now give you a real dedicated Insert key at the top, to the left of Print Screen.

And Microsoft's vendetta against Insert began over a decade ago. I believe in every version of Word after 6.0, you have to select a well-hidden option to enable insert/overtype switching via the Insert key. Otherwise you're permanently locked into insert mode.

[vwestlife]

I like the old style - thick shiny black plastic keys with large centred white text. You can get modern keyboards with large centred text (on cheap dull plastic), but it's for the visually impared so arrows and controls (and all fine detail) are replaced with stupid short form text.
One thing I miss are "deep dish" keytops, which had a nice way of fitting your fingers. Now, most keys are completely flat.

http://wandel.ca/ibm5100/IBM%205100%20display,%20CPU%20register%20display%2 0mode.jpg

[carlsson]

Gah! What's wrong with an Insert key? I mean, it is not like modern keyboards contain fewer keys than they used to, quite the opposite.

[Half-Saint]

Gah! What's wrong with an Insert key? I mean, it is not like modern keyboards contain fewer keys than they used to, quite the opposite.

Yes, and what's with all the media buttons they keep pushing at us? I hate them!

[im_an_alien]

You know what I hate? Standby buttons. Not only is it really annowing to hit standby isntead of Esc (on this beyboard, standby it _right_ above esc), but if I accidentally bump it while I'm in linux, it won't come out of standby, or at least I can't figure out how to make it. The media buttons aren't as bad because in my experience typically they don't even do anything.

[Vlad]

On a cordless set I don't use the Suspend/Standby button is actually recessed down into the keyboard to the point its hard to press even if you really want to. I wish that was more prevalent. I was using a Sun keyboard but the one I have is hard, nay impossible to find anymore and I don't want it to get icky because I'm paranoid like that so I'm sticking to the HP keyboard I bought. It has the suspend above ESC thing, but its far enough up you miss it. It does have a small row of multimedia buttons that I like. The only media player one it has is Play/Pause combo, which is the only one I really use. Occasionally I'll launch the email client if my hand isn't on the mouse.

[dreddnott]

I'll swear by IBM's Model M keyboards, I have two, one for each of my otherwise-modern desktops. They've outlasted most of my other components and I think I can count on them for at least a couple more decades!

Half-Saint: Unicomp keyboards aren't typically that expensive, and for the most part, since they basically took over IBM's Model M manufacturing facility, they use the classic buckling-spring technology.

Slashdot had an interesting review (http://hardware.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/06/30/1423209) of the latest iteration of the Das Keyboard recently, interestingly enough. CmdrTaco apparently didn't like it because it doesn't cooperate with his Mac too well, heh. The comments are great, though, and of course mostly focus on the IBM Model M.

[Half-Saint]

Half-Saint: Unicomp keyboards aren't typically that expensive, and for the most part, since they basically took over IBM's Model M manufacturing facility, they use the classic buckling-spring technology.

I never explicitly said they were expensive. As it is, I think they are actually the cheapest of the newly manufactured clicky bunch. As for me, I'll just stick to the good old Model M. They're still relatively easy to find at the flea market and cost about $5 a piece :D

Cheers
SainT

[Tinkerer]

I always liked the old Northgate Omnikey keyboards. I have 5 of them last time I counted. One is the old gold label version. :)

[im_an_alien]

Model M's are great, but I have a tendency to stay up really late at night,and I'm always afraid the loud clicking will wake someone up, or at the least annoy someone who's already up into making me go to bed.

[Chuck(G)]

Although I'm typing this on a Wang-branded Model M, I like other ones better. German-made Cherry keboards for the NCR 286 systems had a great feel and put the basic F1-F10 keys on the left, as in the 5150 keyboard, with F11-30 on a top row across the keybord.

The best-constructed one that I can recall was a George Risk made for (I think) RCA. Individual sealed and pressure-calibrated reed switches for all keys. No springs used--just doughnut-shaped ceramic magnets encircling the reed switch. Encoding was via a diode matrix and some very early Fairchild DTL. Output was EBCDIC. I used it with my TV Typewriter for a time.

[Mr.Amiga500]

That George Risk keyboard sounds interesting. Is there a picture anywhere?

I just bought a 1991 IBM Model M for $4. I think I'm starting to get a bit of a "keyboard obsession". If I look at all the retro computers around my house, I can count 24 keyboards. Last year I had 2.

Maybe I better go to a "Keyboards Anonymous" meeting. ;)

[Chuck(G)]

That George Risk keyboard sounds interesting. Is there a picture anywhere?

No, I wish I still had the thing, but it departed as excess baggage in a move years ago. I've checked the web for photos of old RCA equipment from the Spectra 70 era, but there's almost nothing around.

Note that no one praises modern Apple keyboards...:p

[Mr.Amiga500]

I've been looking though a bunch of old Byte magazines (what an awesome magazine that was) and the keyboard of the Victor 9000 looks great. Does anybody have one? Does it feel as good as it looks?

[Chuck(G)]

I'm not certain, but ISTR that the keyboard in the Sirius/9000 was made by either Microswitch or Cherry (back then, they were almost interchangeable). Both my Durangos have Microswitch keyboards and they're very nice indeed.

One thing that the older keyboards feature is what's called "double shot" molded keytops, where the legend on the key is molded into the key as a differently-colored plastic. AFAIK, that's not done on modern keyboards, so keytop legends eventually wear off.

Even the Model M reproductions that you can buy don't have the old style keytops. I get the impression that double-shot molding is pretty much unobtainium today.

[Allen]

I'm definitely in the camp that IBM Model M keyboards are the best. These represent IBM's commitment to quality and the idea that things should be made with pride in the USA. I'm glad these keyboards are still made today in the USA.

I can understand why Microsoft and others have removed or "demoted" the insert key. Since the default is already "insert" and since there is little desire to "overwrite," it would appear that the insert key is little pressed. However, I press it often because I use keystroke Shift+Insert to paste instead of Ctrl+V. I'm probably one of the few that still use Shift+Insert.

I'm annoyed that the Microsoft Windows logo is on nearly every keyboard made since the mid-1990s. It doesn't seem right to attach one of these 104-key keyboards with the Microsoft Windows logo key to a computer running another operating system. Why couldn't keyboard manufacturers label these keys without promoting a specific operating system?

So I prefer IBM Model M keyboards with the previous, enhanced 101-key layout.

[Druid6900]

Why couldn't keyboard manufacturers label these keys without promoting a specific operating system?

Oh, I don't know. You think it might be because in excess of 90% (probably closer to 95%) of the computers in the world are running Windows?

The other 5 to 10% (I don't have the exact figure handy and I'm too lazy to look them up) are Mac OS, Linux and all others.

Chances are extremely good that, if you sit down at a computer and push that logo key, you are going to get a start menu.

[Allen]

The Windows key doesn't do anything on my Linux system. There appears to be a "Windows Key Logo License Agreement" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_key). It sounds like keyboard manufacturers are required to put the Microsoft Windows logo on these keys. I guess I'm in the minority feeling "oppressed" by Microsoft.

[Unknown_K]

The Windows key is just Ctrl+Esc isn't it? Atleast that is what I use on my old Northgate Omnikey/102 thats pre Windows keys.

[Allen]

Yes, keystroke Ctrl+Esc is like pressing the Windows key, but it doesn't look like you can use the shortcuts (like Windows key+M which minimizes all windows) unless you have the Windows key itself. Keystroke Shift+F10 is like pressing the menu key.

[Chuck(G)]

The Windows key doesn't do anything on my Linux system. There appears to be a "Windows Key Logo License Agreement" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_key). It sounds like keyboard manufacturers are required to put the Microsoft Windows logo on these keys. I guess I'm in the minority feeling "oppressed" by Microsoft.

Oh, I don't know. Look at all of the Peecee keyboards with "SysRq" and "Pause" keys on them. Does SysRq do anything on your system? The legend on the Model M seems to indicate that it's an "Alt" combination. But it still doesn't do anything on any of my systems. The Model M doesn't have a Windoze key on it and I've never missed it.

I do wish the M had a volume control knob on it, like many of the "internet" keyboards. That's just so convenient...

[carlsson]

A volume knob to turn up or down the clickety-clack? :)

[Chuck(G)]

A volume knob to turn up or down the clickety-clack? :)

That's not as silly as it sounds. IIRC, the operator's console on the CDC 6600 had a speaker and a volume control (accessible from the underside of the keyboard) to make a "chunk-chunk" sound as keys were pressed.

I've certainly seen the same thing on other keyboards.

[MikeS]

There's just no pleasing everybody ;-)

Allen's WIN key doesn't work in Linux, but his SysRq key quite possibly does, whereas it's apparently the opposite for Chuck (or would be if he had a WIN key)...

I think it's one of those good ideas that never took off; many of the systems I worked on in the "good old days" had a similar key that would take you out of an application and into the OS under any circumstances, and I think that was the intent. Instead, many PC applications used one of the F keys (often F10) for a similar purpose; easier to implement but not quite as universal.

FWIW, my Toshiba 3100e uses SysRq to switch screen modes, and various other systems used it as well for hardware functions (reset, etc.)...

m

[barythrin]

Did "break" on a PC ever really do anything on it's own? On my MS ergo keyboard it's actually incorrect merging Pause/Break and Printscreen/SysRq (those are top->bottom) but that'd be incorrect since it should theoretically be shift+pause to get break and in this writing it would be shift+break to get pause.

Bleh.. anyway, I only knew break from basic programming and ctrl+break but I don't remember if ctrl+c has always also done a break or not?

Also, I think I asked this before but were there useful applications for the Alt key besides ctrl+alt+del and Word Perfect?.. just curious if it came from mainframe world or what.

[MikeS]

Well, the ALT key gets a good workout in Windows...

One of the more useful applications is to type special characters not on the keyboard (ALT + numeric keyboard ASCII value)

m

[Mr.Amiga500]

Well, the ALT key gets a good workout in Windows...

One of the more useful applications is to type special characters not on the keyboard (ALT + numeric keyboard ASCII value)

m

I've always hated that. It's totally stupid to force users to memorize an ASCII list just to type special characters. There's the Character Map program (or whatever it's called), but the window doesn't stay on top and you can't redirect output to where you're typing - just copy and paste. It's totally inefficient when you're typing a letter full of accents.

The Amiga has a nice way of doing it. Pressing Alt switches the keyboard keys to the alternate characters. For accented letters, you press the accent key then the letter the accent goes on. Example: for é, you just press Alt-F for the accent, then e. If you want á, you do Alt-F then a. If you can't remember which key is the special character you want, you just bring up the Keyshow graphical keyboard.

I think many people have stopped adding accents to words like cliché and résumé just because it's such a pain in the ass to do it in most operating systems.

[MikeS]

Agreed, it's not the most convenient, but for accented characters, umlauts, etc. there are the different keyboard layouts...

But there are 128 different special characters in the PC's ASCII character set after all, and without a special keyboard you'd pretty well have to look some of those up somewhere no matter what. How do you draw a text box on an amiga?

m

[Chuck(G)]

For handling European character sets, I simply set Windoze to use the "US International" keyboard layout. áçëñò etc. are just double-key combinations; to get ü, just type a double quote (") and then a u, for example. There are other specials, such as ctrl+alt+s to get German "ß". Pretty intuitive.

For other sets, such as Cyrillic, I have an alternate (phonetic) map available that I can switch to using ctrl+alt. Thus, "Дмитрий Медведев" is typed as D-m-i-t-r-i-j, etc. No fussing with character maps or alt+keypad combinations.

[barythrin]

Yeah, I think keyb went ahead and used the appropriate font as well but don't quite remember. I know it changed the keyboard layout, not just the characters. But yeah I was aware of alt+keypad ascii as well as in some programs ctrl+p+letter to print the symbol (like ctrl+p (keep holding ctrl) g would give you ascii 7 for bell, etc).

[carlsson]

By the way, the alternate Cyrillic map is known as homophonic. (please, don't misread!)

[Mr.Amiga500]

For handling European character sets, I simply set Windoze to use the "US International" keyboard layout. áçëñò etc. are just double-key combinations; to get ü, just type a double quote (") and then a u, for example. There are other specials, such as ctrl+alt+s to get German "ß". Pretty intuitive.

That sounds good, but doesn't it screw you up typing regular characters? I once tried setting my keyboard to Canadian-French, but had to switch back because I couldn't access many basic characters (and didn't feel like constantly switching layouts). I'll try "US International" the next time I use (or am forced to use) Windows.

But there are 128 different special characters in the PC's ASCII character set after all, and without a special keyboard you'd pretty well have to look some of those up somewhere no matter what.

That's true, but the accented characters and common symbols should be easily accessed. In Windows in US layout, do you know how to do: £ ¢ ¶ ® -without looking up an ASCII code?

On Amiga, it's so simple (US layout):
Alt-l = £
Alt-4 = ¢ (Shift-4 is $, so this makes sense)
Alt-p = ¶
Alt-r = ®

I'm sure some Windows programs have features to add special characters from a window or menu, but you have to take your hands off the keyboard, move the mouse and click on them.

How do you draw a text box on an amiga?

Do people still use characters to draw a text box? I think the last time I did that was in an MS-DOS assembler program I wrote. After the GUI came out, there's not much point to do it with text (only works with monospaced text anyway). On Amiga, you just use wordprocessors and DTP programs to draw boxes around text.


Back on topic:
So, nobody has a Victor 9000 keyboard? What about the DEC Rainbow keyboard? How does that feel?

[MikeS]

---
<snip>
Do people still use characters to draw a text box? I think the last time I did that was in an MS-DOS assembler program I wrote. After the GUI came out, there's not much point to do it with text (only works with monospaced text anyway).
<snip>

---
Well, the question was, "were there useful applications for the Alt key besides ctrl+alt+del and Word Perfect?..," not whether there were better ways.

m

[Mr.Amiga500]

Yeah, I just went off on a little rant because it was something that bugged me for years.

Back to keyboards:
Did any other makers have "clicky" models? IBM owned the patent on the buckling spring, but did any company licence that design or have their own similar clicky design? (not counting the many with audible speaker beep when pressing keys)

[Chuck(G)]

That sounds good, but doesn't it screw you up typing regular characters? I once tried setting my keyboard to Canadian-French, but had to switch back because I couldn't access many basic characters (and didn't feel like constantly switching layouts). I'll try "US International" the next time I use (or am forced to use) Windows.

The only characters that you really have to get used to doing are the quotes (' and ") which you type by keying quote-space. It gets to be second nature after a very short time.

Did any other makers have "clicky" models? IBM owned the patent on the buckling spring, but did any company licence that design or have their own similar clicky design? (not counting the many with audible speaker beep when pressing keys)

There is a current maker of the IBM-style clicky keyboards:

http://pckeyboards.stores.yahoo.net/keyboards.html

By the way, the alternate Cyrillic map is known as homophonic. (please, don't misread!)

Useful--I've only heard the word used in the musical sense... FWIW, there's a similar keymap for Mac, switched by using the "Caps Lock" key, which makes a lot of sense to me. Does anyone ever use "Caps Lock" for its intended purpose?

[Mr.Amiga500]

There is a current maker of the IBM-style clicky keyboards:

http://pckeyboards.stores.yahoo.net/keyboards.html


I know. I meant back in the 1980's. Somebody said the Tandy 1000 keyboard was "clicky". Did they licence the buckling spring design from IBM or did they have their own design? Or was it not "clicky" at all? Did anybody else make keyboards with a distinctive tactile click? (not just individual keyswitches like Alps/Cherry, but an actual clicking sound & feel)

[barythrin]

Now that you mention it, although this may not count our Z-15(1?) system (Zenith Data Systems 8088) and it's keyboard makes a click sound but it is through the speaker (which I think is actually in the bottom of the keyboard, unless I'm remembering it incorrectly as a child). But I don't know if the keys would be spring loaded, I just know it makes the noise. I also *THINK* I recall some setup program to turn that option on and off (could have been in the debugger but I really don't remember that freshly).

What I remember is when playing some games like Castle where you'd have to hold down the numberpad direction key and the keyboard would make that click noise for each time it read it until the keyboard buffer filled up then it'd do system beeps and not take any additional characters. Honestly was a complete PITA since in a game like that you'd have to hold down your key for no more than 5 seconds or so and then do it again for the constant movement effect.

[Chuck(G)]

I think IBM/Lexmark was unique in the manufacture of buckling-spring keyboards. The other buckling-spring keyboards that I've seen have been rebadged IBMs.

Of course, if you want audible feedback, you can't beat an 026 keypunch. Press a key and get a big THUNK as the hole's punched...

[Terry Yager]

Here I go, weighing in on another religious issue:

CLICKY KEYBOARDS SUCK!!!

I can't stand 'em...they drown out all the voices in my head!

--T

[barythrin]

Yeah but you have to admit, they're the easiest to get a nice drumbeat going so all the voices in your head and have a nice acapella session.

[Mr.Amiga500]

Here I go, weighing in on another religious issue:

CLICKY KEYBOARDS SUCK!!!

I can't stand 'em...they drown out all the voices in my head!

--T

A full-frontal lobotomy will fix those voices. You can even do it on your own with an icepick and a hammer. (but for God's sake, cover the carpet first!)

[Terry Yager]

A full-frontal lobotomy will fix those voices. You can even do it on your own with an icepick and a hammer. (but for God's sake, cover the carpet first!)

Done there, been that...only I couldn't find an icepick (do they even make 'em anymore?), so I used a BIC pen instead. All that did was add some French voices to all the rest! I think the ink may have been contaminated with trace amounts of lead...

--T

[Terry Yager]

Yeah but you have to admit, they're the easiest to get a nice drumbeat going so all the voices in your head and have a nice acapella session.

My voices gots no talent whatsoever.

--T

[Yzzerdd]

My voices gots no talent whatsoever.

--T

Hmm, mine do. Except there is only one voice in my head, which is me. Somehow, it sings wonderfully, which is odd seems I plain suck. Great thing about TALKING to that voice in my head? It actually gives me someone to talk to who is a great listener AND has a powerful mind for very good and well-supported arguements.

And so the crazy side takes one more step out my mouth--wait...fingers?

--Jack

[Terry Yager]

Hmm, mine do. Except there is only one voice in my head, which is me. Somehow, it sings wonderfully, which is odd seems I plain suck. Great thing about TALKING to that voice in my head? It actually gives me someone to talk to who is a great listener AND has a powerful mind for very good and well-supported arguements.

And so the crazy side takes one more step out my mouth--wait...fingers?

--Jack

Mebbe it's because I have absolutely no imagination. Hell, I even dream of ugly women...

--T

[carlsson]

All this brain talk makes me think of the distant future, when keyboards at all may obsoleted and computers become assistents to the brain, probably interconnected wirelessly at private frequencies. Maybe it is sci-fi, but part of the technology is there already today for disabled people. To run a computer with a keyboard will be sooo 20th century, almost as outdated as we might think it is to hit two stones to get a spark and start a fire.

[Terry Yager]

All this brain talk makes me think of the distant future, when keyboards at all may obsoleted and computers become assistents to the brain, probably interconnected wirelessly at private frequencies. Maybe it is sci-fi, but part of the technology is there already today for disabled people. To run a computer with a keyboard will be sooo 20th century, almost as outdated as we might think it is to hit two stones to get a spark and start a fire.

I can hardly wait to get my TekWar implant and jack-in to the net!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TekWar

--

[Chuck(G)]

All this brain talk makes me think of the distant future, when keyboards at all may obsoleted and computers become assistents to the brain, probably interconnected wirelessly at private frequencies. Maybe it is sci-fi, but part of the technology is there already today for disabled people. To run a computer with a keyboard will be sooo 20th century, almost as outdated as we might think it is to hit two stones to get a spark and start a fire.

Lately, I've been wondering why we still have widgets with screens when it's possible to simply project an image directly onto my retinas.

But I'm old-fashioned; I think at about the same speed at which I type. The problem, as I have discovered, is that I often speak faster than I can think...;)

[barythrin]

That brings current keyboards into the mix (off topic, but the thread is wavering anyway lol). The Xybernaut MA-IV, etc that have the headset say a similar claim of projecting the image into the retena. That sounds cooler than it is. It's just a mini screen on a quite uncomfortable head mount with a see through mirror in front of it that reflects the image in front of you so you can see it. It'd be nicer if everyone around you couldn't see it as well, but whatever.

The MIT Twidler was a semi-historical one handed keyboard.. obviously created for all the college kids that heard about typing with one hand j/k it was via a discussion we all had on the wearable computer list back in the day trying to figure out some of the best methods for portable typing. Some of the things mentioned were adding contacts to a jacket or shirt that you could type on both side of your jacket (split keyboard). One person thought about typing with your tongue with contacts inside of your mouth (I didn't dig that idea).

[Chuck(G)]

'Way back when, a co-worker thought he'd take a high-tech approach to gambling (this was pre-microprocessor). He rigged up a couple of LEDs in his glasses and a switch in his shoe that he could work with his toe and concealed various bits of circuitry and batteries in his clothes. The idea was to count cards in blackjack.

Well, he went to Reno, and to make a long story short, it didn't work. His companion who came along to watch the show found him in a stall in the men's room trying to repair his failed contraption.

But I could imagine simple signaling devices activated by bringing one's teeth together in a certain way, etc. A player of any musical wind instrument will tell you that there's a lot that goes on in the mouth, lips and fingers to get just the right sound, so I could imagine a data entry device based on that.

So there aren't any devices out there that actually scan a raster onto the retina?

[vwestlife]

Now that you mention it, although this may not count our Z-15(1?) system (Zenith Data Systems 8088) and it's keyboard makes a click sound but it is through the speaker (which I think is actually in the bottom of the keyboard, unless I'm remembering it incorrectly as a child).
The Atari 400 and 800 also made a key click beep through an internal speaker -- separate from the 4-voice tone generator, which had its own external audio output. All newer Atari computers (XL, XE, ST, STe, TT, Falcon, etc.) routed the key click beep through the main audio output and no longer had an internal speaker dedicated to it. On all, the key beep can be disabled if desired.

The NEC PC-8001 series also had an electronic key click beep through its small internal speaker. Its keyboard had no tactile feel, but it was very sturdily constructed with a metal case, so it had a nice solid feel when typing.

[TNC]

For me is "Das Keyboard II" the best one ever. The old IBM klicky XT keyboards will also give you a really sweet soft experience.... ;)

[carlsson]

Yesterday I borrowed a boxed BBC Micro from a friend, because mine has broken down and I want to diagnose what's the fault. In the last two years I've owned four different Beebs, and felt the keyboard is nothing particular. Now this fifth one.. wow, it has such an instant, tactile response that I suspect it is barely used, just discoloured over the years. I was actually shocked to type on it, almost like the characters displayed themselves before I pressed the keys.

What I'm trying to say is that the feel and response of a keyboard may depend a lot about what condition the computer is. I also realize a tactile response does not automatically make a keyboard nice to type on for a long while.

[Tinkerer]

As far as I know, all of the Northgate Omnikey keyboards 'click' and they use mechanical ALPS switches as did Zenith, Dell, Focus, and Leading Edge, to name a few.