Telnet Access For VCF

[frozenfire75i]

I have been thinking the last few days.... This is a vintage computer forum with 100's of vintage computer folks, but there is one major missing thing.

We must use are newer/non-vintage system's to get on the forum talk with each orther ect.

I think, we all should be able to use are vintage computers to access this wonderful network of us all on an old time Dial-up-BBS service and/or telnet.

I think one of us, or maybe all of us should setup a real Dial-Up-BBS and/or telnet. I am sure with all our brains and computer junk ;-) out there we could set one up! Erik you run this fine set-up maybe you could lead?

[Chuck(G)]

Given that a lot of folks have mobile/cell phone service only, how is a POTS modem supposed to work?

A large dial-in BBS is a major capital outlay with recurring monthly costs. I wouldn't want to saddle anyone with that.

Instead, how about a telnet server? The experience is similar and much vintage gear knows telnet.

[frozenfire75i]

Well yes something along that line.... Telnet then maybe limted few calls at once dial-up BBS for those who have normal phones ect... Something so we all can use are vintage systems to access this.



Given that a lot of folks have mobile/cell phone service only, how is a POTS modem supposed to work?

A large dial-in BBS is a major capital outlay with recurring monthly costs. I wouldn't want to saddle anyone with that.

Instead, how about a telnet server? The experience is similar and much vintage gear knows telnet.

[Unknown_K]

I liked BBS system back in the day becuse nothing better was out, but I don't realy want to go back to long distance calls and tieing up the phone line.

Why not just do an IRC channel, even XTs can get into those these days (or old Mac, Amiga, etc).

[chuckcmagee]

Yes, it is always strange to me how we remember the good parts and forget the bad parts. Thinking back on my BBS days, trying to remember the commands from one type of software to the next was always a pain. You would have to keep listing the menus and hope it didn't scroll off the screen too fast.

[Chuck(G)]

Yes, it is always strange to me how we remember the good parts and forget the bad parts. Thinking back on my BBS days, trying to remember the commands from one type of software to the next was always a pain. You would have to keep listing the menus and hope it didn't scroll off the screen too fast.

To recreate a complete experience, I suppose that we'd have to slow down IRC or telnet to 300 baud speeds or provide a client-side package that would throttle things down to 110 and provide teletype noise. Oh, and line noise garbage characters...

I think I still have a hard disk around somewhere with my BBS just before I pulled the plug around 1996 or so. Windows NT 4.0 running Auntie multi-user on USR Courier modems.

It's nice now not having to worry about the right flavor of download protocol too--Zmodem, Xmodem, Kermit, Ymodem (Xmodem 1K), Ymodem-batch, etc...

Or you could just call me and tell me what files you need and I could write them to a reel of 1/2" 556 bpi 7 track tape and put it on the next flight to your area. :cool:

[chuckcmagee]

Hey, I still think of getting a ASR33 into my mobile home trailer somehow. I still love the way it would sit there with the print cylinder bobbing up and down. Talk about a pain!! Trying to keep all those mech parts working these days. I have 2 Silent 700 terminals. I can't get either one of them to work properly because I can't find any dialup that really supports 300 baud. Most of them detect the 300 baud and promptly disconnect! Sigh.

[Ole Juul]

Yes, it is always strange to me how we remember the good parts and forget the bad parts. Thinking back on my BBS days, trying to remember the commands from one type of software to the next was always a pain. You would have to keep listing the menus and hope it didn't scroll off the screen too fast.
Same here, especially the scrolling off the screen. Actually come to think of it that is probably the reason I sarted running MON.COM on all my boxes. Thats a TSR (in 1K) that lets me remember screens and scroll through them. Without that I was a nervous wreck. :)

One thing though, in those days the info was much more concentrated. I can't read as fast as a 2400 can throw text at me anyway. Another thing that I really miss is FIDO. Not all the garbage and idiots. Waiting till the next day for replies also gave a goodly amount of time to regret a bad post!

Still, having a seperate desktop with Google and being able to look up a LOT of stuff almost as fast as if it was on my own drive, is pretty cool.

[Lawrence Woodman]

I agree it would be great to use the old machines to chat and swap ideas. I've been thinking about it for a while. The problem that I often have with my old machines is knowing what to do with them. Playing games is fun, but I'm not that much of a game guy. I program them, but then this often lacks purpose. I guess that's why I started my blog so that at least I could put my retro programming efforts to some good use.

If I could use my old machines to communicate with like minded people that would be great.

I think it would have to be over telnet, as at I don't think people would bother otherwise, at least not many. Also it would be good to develop a new hybrid system similar to a bbs of old, but with features that we have learnt since that time.

We could even have a form of browsing especially adapted to old technology.

Hmm, I'm rambling.

Anyway. There is one thing I'm sure of; the slow speed of the connection just added to the anticipation and excitement:

Logging in to a new bbs, not knowing what you were going to get. The page slowly filling, character by character. And Yes! you like the look of the BBS, success!

Great Days!

[Sharkonwheels]

I don't miss modems one single bit.
Still got quite a few of my old USR Courier V.32, HST, V.Everything, and I-modem.
Got my Telebit Trailblazers, worldblazers, Tx000 (T2000, T3000, etc..), and the last modem I ever bought, and modemblaster 56k.

They are in the garage in a "modem box" plastic lid-covered walmart tub.

And THAT is EXACTLY where they are STAYING!

:)

I do remember my 16.8k HST doing 1MB in 15 minutes.
Now we do 15MB in 1 minute. Or more!

Remind me why I want to go back?


T

[Ole Juul]

> "Remind me why I want to go back?"

Well there's two parts to this story. One is the modem, which were lots of fun but, I agree we can do it in other ways which are much faster.

The other part of the story is that we now have so much GARBAGE to download which is absolutely meaningless. We need to have high speed just to be able to accept the stuff we don't want. OK, so our isos are 1GB and that's not practical with slow speed. But, much of the other stuff is just advertising and html fluff that doesn't actually carry any CONTENT.

So, to my mind, it's not just about going back to a slow speed. It's also about going back to less garbage.

[frozenfire75i]

I agree with this guy....

Ok so using the old modems on the Dial-UP BBS, maybe not the best idel, however I have heard you all speek of slowing down telnet so that our vintage systems can connect?

Thats what I am after and hope to get one day an hybrid of a new system mixed with BBS/telnet Stlye.. I think it would be a cool thing to extend this froum on to telnet and allow us all to use are vintage systems!





I agree it would be great to use the old machines to chat and swap ideas. I've been thinking about it for a while. The problem that I often have with my old machines is knowing what to do with them. Playing games is fun, but I'm not that much of a game guy. I program them, but then this often lacks purpose. I guess that's why I started my blog so that at least I could put my retro programming efforts to some good use.

If I could use my old machines to communicate with like minded people that would be great.

I think it would have to be over telnet, as at I don't think people would bother otherwise, at least not many. Also it would be good to develop a new hybrid system similar to a bbs of old, but with features that we have learnt since that time.

We could even have a form of browsing especially adapted to old technology.

Hmm, I'm rambling.

Anyway. There is one thing I'm sure of; the slow speed of the connection just added to the anticipation and excitement:

Logging in to a new bbs, not knowing what you were going to get. The page slowly filling, character by character. And Yes! you like the look of the BBS, success!

Great Days!

[Trixter]

A large dial-in BBS is a major capital outlay with recurring monthly costs. I wouldn't want to saddle anyone with that.


My phone server through my cable provider is $24.99 a month, all calls to USA and Canada included. I could run a BBS and it couldn't cost me an additional dime.

The problem is, most people don't have modems any more. Telnet BBSes seem more practical.

The BIGGEST problem is that vintage computer people are so scattered that it doesn't make sense to have a million little places to check each day. I am on the cctalk list, this forum, and (when I start my PCjr programming project) Mike Brutman's PCjr forums. That's it. I don't have time to check a metric ton of other sites. I don't even go to VOGONs or the DOSBox forums any more -- no time.

[mbbrutman]

I fully agree with the sentiment expressed in the thread. Which is why I've been writing a telnet BBS from scratch that will run on truly vintage hardware. (A PCjr at that ...) Some of you have seen the prototype in the past few weeks. I need to do a round of performance tuning and then add message boards, but it's almost there.

A true telnet BBS has the advantage that nobody has to get a modem out and dial anything. And I have designed this BBS to use TCP/IP from the ground up so that I can support multiple sessions, which is something you can't do on older modem based BBSs using a 'proxy' machine to get on the Internet.

You should also be able to connect to it using vintage hardware. NCSA telnet is excellent, and will run on 8088 class sytems.

IRC is a good second option. Check out the IRC clients that Mike Chambers and I have written - they work on modern servers. Mike's has a few more usability features than mine, but it doesn't do DNS and previous versions have been slow. Mine doesn't recognize mIRC extensions for color and such but it is wicked fast even on the slowest hardware.

Lastly, when I call for testing help on the telnet BBS, help me out .. telnet in a few times to exercise it. I'm grateful for the help that I get, but I feel like a pest nagging for more help.

My IRC client for old DOS machines: http://www.brutman.com/Dos_Networking/IRCjr.html

Lastly, I'm kind of with Trixter on this. I don't want a telnet BBS to fragment things further. There are some things you can do with a web based forum that a telnet BBS will not do well. Editing posts is a big example .. I don't know how many of you remember line editing, but it's not fun. The editing capabilities present in browsers is infinitely better than what any telnet BBS can do, especially if ANSI escape codes are not used. With ANSI escape codes things are more usable, but far slower.


Mike

[Chuck(G)]

My phone server through my cable provider is $24.99 a month, all calls to USA and Canada included. I could run a BBS and it couldn't cost me an additional dime.

How many lines does that get you--only one? I was thinking about a a real BBS with at least half-a-dozen incoming lines.

How well does a 56K modem work over that cable-supplied line?

[Trixter]

How many lines does that get you--only one? I was thinking about a a real BBS with at least half-a-dozen incoming lines.

Sorry, I misunderstood you. Yes, my service is only one line.


How well does a 56K modem work over that cable-supplied line?

It depends on the service. It either works flawlessly, or not at all. You can check before ordering such a service by asking them if their service is compatible with "fax machines".

[supertzar]

I think we should look at something that supplements what we have now. IRC is a good example, for real-time chat within the community, and should be able to run on just about anything from what I am hearing. I don't really see a point to regress to a text-based BBS because it could further fragment the community as well as never provide the capabilities this web forum provides.

[chuckcmagee]

We already tried IRC. Too many timezones! This "post a question and wait for someone to get up and answer it" works much better. Like right now, the people in the UK, Norway, etc. are sound asleep.

[frozenfire75i]

Well, I don't wish to fragment things eathier... I was just merely thinking of of an extenstion of this fourm. like someone could post on the web part and it would apper on both BBS and web or post on the bbs and it post on the web also.

But who knows maybe it's a bad ideal after all, to network our vintage systems and enjoy them even more!



Lastly, I'm kind of with Trixter on this. I don't want a telnet BBS to fragment things further. There are some things you can do with a web based forum that a telnet BBS will not do well. Editing posts is a big example .. I don't know how many of you remember line editing, but it's not fun. The editing capabilities present in browsers is infinitely better than what any telnet BBS can do, especially if ANSI escape codes are not used. With ANSI escape codes things are more usable, but far slower.


Mike

[MikeS]

Well, I don't wish to fragment things eathier... I was just merely thinking of of an extenstion of this fourm. like someone could post on the web part and it would apper on both BBS and web or post on the bbs and it post on the web also.

But who knows maybe it's a bad ideal after all, to network our vintage systems and enjoy them even more!
----------
Well, it depends on your vintage systems; for example there are certainly BBSs, running on C64s, that you can log into with your C64 through an internet-connected proxy or directly using a phone modem, and I believe there are similar systems for Atari, Apple &c.

m

[Lawrence Woodman]

Another option would be to run a web forum in parallel with a fido technology network. So that we could connect with our vintage computers to a bbs carrying the network, either by dial-up or telnet, and then using a point system (which I gather wasn't so common in the US), or QWK, download and reply to messages in the forum.

The moderation would work the same. Obviously it would mean writing a custom web forum to be able to handle this, but it wouldn't be that difficult.

[nymetropolitans]

Well, I don't wish to fragment things eathier... I was just merely thinking of of an extenstion of this fourm. like someone could post on the web part and it would apper on both BBS and web or post on the bbs and it post on the web also.

But who knows maybe it's a bad ideal after all, to network our vintage systems and enjoy them even more!

I was actually thinking of the exact same thing the other day. Not that I have any idea how to do it, but in theory it shouldn't be that hard to implement. Could work the same way a BBS used to dial in to pickup and post to USENET and FidoNet (and all the other network) feeds....except just grab them off this web server and convert to whatever format your given BBS software uses. If it was successful, maybe other vintage computing/gaming forums would be interested in making their threads available as well and instead of "scattering", all these forums would be somewhat unified and fully readable by any machine capable of using telnet - so pretty much anything from the last 30+ years!

I miss those days, and I think this would give a lot of actual use to antiquated machines in a modern environment. Very cool idea! Anyone smarter than me care to wager how difficult such a system might be to get going?

[Yzzerdd]

I agree with the FidoNet idea. A BBS I belong to allows internet-based graphical access, Telnet access, and dial-up access (in more of BBS form). It's pretty cool. I don't know the details of how everything works, but the sysop is nice and would probably tell me. The most I know is it is run on a PII running Windows NT and WinServer v6.3. Lowest connect rate is 600 baud, IIRC. Terribly slow at that, but VERY acceptable at 1200.

I've been poking at this for about a year now, I'm happy we're all finally banding together and brainstorming. I don't think the modem thing will be an issue. 1200 baud is acceptable as I said earlier, even when loading graphics(text based, color) on screen with ANSI, VT100, or no emulation.

There are hundreds of different areas to post in via FidoNet, GatorNet, UseNet, etc, and it is all pretty easy to navigate. The BBS I've mentioned has a feature so it only shows as much as it can on your screen then pauses, so I'm sure we could do it here, too.

As for the line-editor issue, we don't HAVE to use line-editing. The BBS I belong to allows full-page editing, and when you are finished you just press [ESC] twice. My 4.77MHz IBM 5150 runs it great, even better on the 8MHz AT&T PC 6300.

Just in case anyone wants to check it out, let me give the info for accessing this BBS. ANSI/VT100 or better is required for color on Telnet or the traditional dial-up BBS.

Telnet to or internet to rdfig.net port 23
Dial in to: 972-329-0781

--Jack

[frozenfire75i]

I know there is orther telnet and dial-up BBS out there... But I am thinking about one for the vintage computer... As far as I know this is the biggest and most active "hang out" for vintage computers!





I agree with the FidoNet idea. A BBS I belong to allows internet-based graphical access, Telnet access, and dial-up access (in more of BBS form). It's pretty cool. I don't know the details of how everything works, but the sysop is nice and would probably tell me. The most I know is it is run on a PII running Windows NT and WinServer v6.3. Lowest connect rate is 600 baud, IIRC. Terribly slow at that, but VERY acceptable at 1200.

I've been poking at this for about a year now, I'm happy we're all finally banding together and brainstorming. I don't think the modem thing will be an issue. 1200 baud is acceptable as I said earlier, even when loading graphics(text based, color) on screen with ANSI, VT100, or no emulation.

There are hundreds of different areas to post in via FidoNet, GatorNet, UseNet, etc, and it is all pretty easy to navigate. The BBS I've mentioned has a feature so it only shows as much as it can on your screen then pauses, so I'm sure we could do it here, too.

As for the line-editor issue, we don't HAVE to use line-editing. The BBS I belong to allows full-page editing, and when you are finished you just press [ESC] twice. My 4.77MHz IBM 5150 runs it great, even better on the 8MHz AT&T PC 6300.

Just in case anyone wants to check it out, let me give the info for accessing this BBS. ANSI/VT100 or better is required for color on Telnet or the traditional dial-up BBS.

Telnet to or internet to rdfig.net port 23
Dial in to: 972-329-0781

--Jack

[Yzzerdd]

Right, right, what I meant was that we could do something LIKE that BBS. The point was, a BBS like what we want is already out there--all we have to do is use that software and we could be on our way to dialing in, telnetting, or even just using the internet to access the forums.

The reason I left the addresses to it is so that you guys could look at it and get the feel of it, and brainstorm as to what we could do here with that software.

--Jack

[Mike Chambers]

just install arachne on your XT. if you have an hour to spare, you might be able to squeeze two posts in.

in all seriousness, bobcat is a decent choice. text-only browser for DOS and it handles posting here just fine, i've tried it on my supersport 8088.

atm, i am browsing/posting here on a 486 running NT4 and opera 6.02. it's more like junk than vintage though. there is a fine line between the two terms. :p

[Sharkonwheels]

Heh - you guys can knock yourselves out.
I went through the whole 4.77 XT-to 10MHz, to 286, to 386SX, to 386DX, to 486DX, to Pentium, to PII, to PIII, to AMD Athlon XP. Used that 386SX/25 for much longer than I shoulda', but couldn't afford an upgrade. Had a Perstor card, and (2) Seagate ST-4096 80MB drives, each giving about 130MB on the Perstor.

Still remember the first IDE drive I put in that thing, a Maxtor LXT213A, 200MB 3.5" HH drive. Dang thing cost $585, +$15 for the IDE-Multi-I/O.

Still remember the first over-1Gb drive i ever bought, took a YEAR to save up for it.
Was a Maxtor Panther PS-17 1.7Gb SCSI, on a DTC 3290AS EISA card (100% 15xx emulation), ran OS/2 2.11 on it. I *STILL* have that drive, and it STILL works!

Been at 300 / 1200 / 2400 / 9600 / 14400 / 16800 /19200 / 28800 / 33600 / 56K baud for more time than I think I needed to be punished. Did the 64kb ISDN, and 128kb ISDN, still wasn't enough.

Don't miss it, don't wanna do it again, thanks much.

I'm enjoying my 1400x900 res LCD laptop, with a Core2Duo/4GB RAM/320GB SATA2.

Telnet/webboards I'll try, but I ain't hooking up a modem!

:mrgreen:

T

[Yzzerdd]

It's not like your loading graphics and that with a modem--just text, which is plenty fast.

Besides, using the software I've been rambling about, you wouldn't have to change anything. Dont want to dial in? Just go to the main website, which could be no different than it is now. But it'd be accessible through different ways that would all have their own features.

--Jack

[im_an_alien]

I, for one, think it would be amazingly awesome to log into a VC chat room from one of my vintage comps. All I have right now that's remotely capable is an XT, though. My PS/2 is still broken, and I don't think there's much hope in hooking my tandy up, is there?

[Terry Yager]

Good stuff here, but I think I should point out that the vision of the management here is not to provide a 'hang-out' or 'chat room', but rather a repository for high-quality information about vintage computers (and yes, I'm fully aware that I'm probably the worst offender of this policy). The chat room concept was tried here at one time, but the thing more or less withered and died on the vine from lack of interest/use, probably due again to the time differences.

--T

[frozenfire75i]

I was using "Hang out" meaning it as a group of all of us around vintage computers.....

Once again.. I am not looking for a chat a room... just a way to access this form on my IBM 5150 and for orthers to do the same!

[Druid6900]

I'm with Tony, been there, done that, got the reduced eyesight.

Started off with a Tandy Model 100 at 300 baud.

I've EARNED the internet.

[Terry Yager]

The 'novelty' is only appealing to those who haven't done their time in the trenches.

--T

[chuckcmagee]

Oh you guys! I just loved waking up every 3 hours to check on my 19 hour modem download of 19 OS/2 update images 10 years ago.

[JT64]

Just found this BBS site there seem to be com port emulation programs, i am not quite sure how they work.

Will both server and client require the com port simulation?

But the old BBS systems didn't have any adress only listening for commands over a port, how did they handle multiple connections over same port?

If anyone have any starter page for understanding how old BBS worked i would be greatful, did they followed a common command standard at all? Or was it dedicated clients for the servers?

Is there some underlying protocol, i have forgotten all about slip and ppp.

JT

[JT64]

http://www.dmine.com/bbscorner/telvm.htm

[nymetropolitans]

I downloaded the newest copies of Renegade and oblivion/2....holy crap this brings back memories! I have an unused cable line in my house so I might actually try to get one of these going just for the heck of it.

[Terry Yager]

I'd also rather forget the thrill of running the fone bill up over $350.00 in a single day.

--T

[Lou - N2MIY]

Folks,

I picked up a nifty device at a hamfest last year for $5 out of a junkpile. It is a BlackBox model 37687-R2 enhanced TCP/IP terminal server. Basically it has sixteen DB25F RS232 connectors that are each assigned to individual ports of one ethernet address. The ethernet side of the device has connections for thick, thin, and 10BaseT. Each port can be configured by using a terminal attached to one of the ports to access the setup firmware.

The real fun was when I connected a pdp-11/23 console port to it, then it to a wireless ethernet bridge. Then I sat upstairs with my modern laptop with wireless and a VT100 terminal emulator to run the 11/23.

Perhaps something like this could enable an old-school BBS on vintage equipment to be accessed over the internet. And since I'm old enough to have actually used a 300 baud acoustic coupler and dec printing terminal to access a mainframe, I'm totally fine with using such a setup to run 9600 baud.

Lou

[MikeS]

For a BBS a terminal server like that could indeed be useful. But for what you're doing, a single RS-232 port, all you'd need is an old laptop, preferably with wireless capability, running an RS-232<>Internet bridge program.

(Just in case someone wants to do it who doesn't have a TS).

[nymetropolitans]

Perhaps something like this could enable an old-school BBS on vintage equipment to be accessed over the internet. And since I'm old enough to have actually used a 300 baud acoustic coupler and dec printing terminal to access a mainframe, I'm totally fine with using such a setup to run 9600 baud.

Lou

You can set up even the most ancient DOS communications software as telnet accessible using a software Virtual Modem. It enables you to let an application "see" your ethernet card as a COM port, so you just plug the virtual settings into your BBS config and your copy of PCBoard from 1985 is none the wiser. Some packages even have a built in telnet server and dialer, IP addresses become phone numbers....very simple. I was surprised to find such a thing exists.

The one drawback is that I have yet to find a VM that will run on something less than a 386 with Windows 3.x, so you can't get all that vintage with the hardware, despite the age of the software at your disposal. I'm pretty sure there is other telnet-accessible BBS software out there for sub-386 and other non-x86 type machines, though, which doesn't require any software-fooling measures. I could be wrong, I haven't really looked.

That's not the big dilemma with what is being proposed here, though. It'd be neat if the theoretic BBS ran on a vintage hardware as well, but the goal would ultimately be to read/post messages on a web-based vBulletin/php forum and have it readable via telnet (or dialup) BBS and vice versa - so that you would be able to utilize fancy, modern internet modes of communication through antiquated equipment like a PDP-11.

The software to do this on the BBS side already exists. Before the internet was commonplace, and well into the 1990s, a lot of local bulletin boards were members of much larger message networks like FidoNet and WWIVnet. Messages posted on a local BBS would be stored on that system, then at a specified time that BBS would dial into a remote host that would store it and send it out to all other systems on the network when they dialed in, as well as send back those that it had received. It obviously doesn't work in real time, but it worked well! USENET newsgroups and net e-mail could also be picked up using this method.

In our proposed system, we would be trading the FIDO-type host for a webserver that hosts a WWW accessible forum. It would function in basically the same exact way, except would also have to convert those threads and posts native to the web to the format utilized by your BBS software and the other way around as well. Like I said earlier, I have no idea how it would be done, but it doesn't seem that hard!

I'd also like to mention that my intention in posting any of this isn't to say this is some kind of functionality that VCF needs or should implement - just suggesting that it would be neat. This is something that would have little interest outside of the hobby, and vintage-computer.com (as far as I know) is the largest online community of vintage computer hobbyists. Maybe if I read a lot of books or something I can figure out how to do it myself on my own host and we'll see how it goes.

[frozenfire75i]

I agree with ny, that is my problem also.... I don't how to set any of it up... even If I did i could not link it to this fourm... the boys in charge here don't want anything to do with setting up a telnet ext. to this fourm... no dial-up just something to telnet our vintage systems on the fourm! So untill they jump on the bandwagon it's pretty much furitless!

[Yzzerdd]

I don't think they are quite grasping that they wouldn't have to change a thing with how they get on here. They could continue on using the internet-based forums, whilst us others wanting do dial in or telnet in could connect that way. Same forum, same posts, different ways of accessing.

--Jack

[Terry Yager]

I'm not so sure the BigChief doesn't want VCF to be telnet-accessible, it's more likely he doesn't have the time to setup & maintain such a setup (although I don't speak for Erik, just my own take on the subject). We do have a forum for suggestions and discussion of matters pertaining to improving the VCF, perhaps you should start a thread there, so everyone can weigh-in and see where we all stand.

--T

[frozenfire75i]

I was thinking it would be cool to have telnet and or dial-up access BBS style to the VCF so we could all use are vintage systems to access this fourm also! The cool factor would be out of this world!!!

[frozenfire75i]

Done.... Let's hope it gets the big boys looking at it now!!!!


I'm not so sure the BigChief doesn't want VCF to be telnet-accessible, it's more likely he doesn't have the time to setup & maintain such a setup (although I don't speak for Erik, just my own take on the subject). We do have a forum for suggestions and discussion of matters pertaining to improving the VCF, perhaps you should start a thread there, so everyone can weigh-in and see where we all stand.

--T

[nymetropolitans]

If we use the FIDO-style method i mentioned, there would be no need for this site to set up or host anything on the telnet side. I have an unused cable line myself and im sure there would be more than a few others willing to host it. The only thing required on the VC side would be installing the not-yet-existant php script or whatever it is that the interwebz uses to accomplish such tasks. All that should entail is copying some files and setting some parameters. It'd be very low bandwith.

I'm sure if we all put our heads together we could make it work!

[frozenfire75i]

Yes I would also be more then happy to host it also.. And supply some whatever!


If we use the FIDO-style method i mentioned, there would be no need for this site to set up or host anything on the telnet side. I have an unused cable line myself and im sure there would be more than a few others willing to host it. The only thing required on the VC side would be installing the not-yet-existant php script or whatever it is that the interwebz uses to accomplish such tasks. All that should entail is copying some files and setting some parameters. It'd be very low bandwith.

I'm sure if we all put our heads together we could make it work!

[barythrin]

I've also thought about this a lot as well. Meant to have one up a few years back but yeah it was kind of a "who needs another place to check" deal plus the time to get it up and reliable was draining. I've set up lots of bbses in the past which yeah when I was bored at Xam at night were fun to go through all the configuration options and draw a whip out the ANSI editor for some cool menus for everything lol.

Plus I wanted to play some of my favorite door games again if I can find the registration codes for the legit ones we hosted back then. (Ok, I really just want to play Trade Wars and Usurper) but still I was going to host as many as possible... ok so not to drizzle on about my fantasy board but yeah there are some common issues with it.

-Number of connections at a time
--It's doable and you can have software automatically reroute a person to a different TCP port and open 23 or 22 again.

-Supported software/hardware to host it (I wanted to host it on my original system I had the board on last and preferrably a non-Windows OS) *this is what killed the project lol
--I was trying to host on OS/2 or EcomStation but synchronet and one other I found for free.. can't remember who it was anymore.. (elebbs?, telegard?/renegade?) weren't very stable and for whatever reason a telnet session took around 30 seconds before you'd get the login prompt which was really bad. (http://www.dmine.com/bbscorner/ had a lot of helpful links and info http://www.bbsmates.com/ is another site I'm on which I found a few other folks in my area doing similar emulation via linux tty/com wrappers). Virtual Modems/TCP COM port wrappers seemed unstable at the time and I wasn't sure about trying them.

-Price of the BBS software and hosting
--Freeware products I tried didn't quite cut the bill but again.. I was getting discouraged trying to get stuff running under semi-obsolete operating systems.

-Security/Usage/Monitoring/Spam, etc
--Like you all I thought about doing FidoNet and usenet processing. Catch is, the amount of spam vs usable data is a bit scary. Didn't want to just host a spamtrap. Plus as nice as telnetable ANSI is, I really wasn't sure about condoning insecure communications that all your passwords would be readable over the network if I did telnet and wanted to do SSH or TLS wrapping on telnet.. anyway it was a complicated scenario that I never quite got the answer on due to prior software issues.

The other catch was what to host.. secretly (hush) I wanted to host software images for all our vintage systems despite copyrights. Just as an archive for dying software and of course I guess if someone gained access after a while I could remove things on a request basis but for the spirit of the collector I did want these things archived somewhere.

So I still have that dream but not the time :-( I could certainly assist in some way or maybe some odd scenario happens and I find myself with a crap load of time and I'll get it up again on newer older hardware and eventually maybe it can merge into something with Erik.

Anyway thought I'd chime in with my past thoughts. As for modems, I'm too lazy to get it done but I imaged an old modem (the type that you put your phone receiver on) would easily work with a cell phone. It'd also likely cover the long distance line factor although I wasn't sure about connected a physical phone line to the BBS due to hosting costs.

- John

[Lawrence Woodman]

I do think that a fidonet style network would be the way to go. They are relatively simple to setup, and assuming that we all stick to the same network , could be a force to unify the fragmented retro community.

For those wanting to do it via the web (and I know that it is probably the majority) It could work by having a web front end to which you login, then interact with the local forums as usual. The messages are then collected and shared with others on the network via echomail.

Echomail is moderated as standard so there shouldn't be a big problem with spam, plus the local bbs/weblogin service could also also appoint moderators to ensure that no spam goes out from their node.

This would then allow us to setup a number of nodes from which we could collect our mail with our old computers.

We could read/write messages via an interactive text session, or QWK or fido points. All of this is very doable on our beloved classic computers.

The beauty of this system is that you could use the web interface most of the time, but when you are feeling in the mood, you could use your vintage computer.

This would mean that we could add variety to our community, but maintain better contact. Plus of course getting more use out of our old computers.

All the software has been written for the user end of the system, that is for most systems.

It would take some organising to establish the network, but it is not too hard. Then we would need to write a scanner/tosser to take the news messages from the local forum and create an outgoing packet, as well as put the messages from an incoming packet into the forum. Once this is done there are front end mailers for most systems capable of running this. So we should be home dry.

I for one will volunteer to help if there is enough interest.

[JollyRogers]

Agreed, however I doubt the forum software can be used with telnet. to do this, we would need to have a Telnet/Dial-up BBS in addition to a web forum which would split up the discussion. No good.

Cool idea nonetheless.

[BG101]

I see you've already had a number of responses here (http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showthread.php?t=12975) :)





BG

[Terry Yager]

I see you've already had a number of responses here (http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showthread.php?t=12975) :)





BG


Threads merged (sorry if it's a little confusing).

--T

[Lawrence Woodman]

Agreed, however I doubt the forum software can be used with telnet. to do this, we would need to have a Telnet/Dial-up BBS in addition to a web forum which would split up the discussion. No good.


There's no reason for the discussion to be split, what has been proposed by some including myself, is to have the web forum messages represented by the BBS (or whatever other method). Therefore those updating on the BBS will be working with the same message base as those working from the forum.

[frozenfire75i]

Yes that's what I say...

OK I think we need to get organized, there is a lot of good ideals floating around in this thread.... So who ever wants to work on this and has the know how.. Post with "I am in".

Then I guess we need to to find out what step one would be? What is step one? How do we begain!




There's no reason for the discussion to be split, what has been proposed by some including myself, is to have the web forum messages represented by the BBS (or whatever other method). Therefore those updating on the BBS will be working with the same message base as those working from the forum.

[johnx993]

My thoughts...

1) Best to not tinker with the forums; keep them centralized, web accessible, etc.
2) One solution is to have the forum database accessible by a back-end process that can interface with straight ASCII requests. In short, a guy with a dumb terminal can use it.
3) An extension of #2... A group project of sorts... Write software to run on our various clients to access the forums database. A little "front-end" application that communicates with a forum database "back-end" running on a telnet or dial up machine. Don't need a big BBS system with all that overhead and weirdness. And you can get a better user interface, both in looks and performance. But this takes a little more work on our part.

Just my $0.02

-J

[nymetropolitans]

johnx993 - #2 is exactly what we're talking about, except through a telnet BBS. It'd be far easier to use an already established, proven software package to run that side of things than code from scratch. I don't know how familiar you are with BBS software, but most if not all had message forums that aren't all that much different in functionality than modern php-based web boards. There would be absolutely nothing that would change about the current vcforums implementation.

frozenfire - I'm not sure where exactly to go from here, but I'm excited to work on something like this! Personally, I'm working on just getting a telnet BBS set up for testing right now...seems like a logical first step. My work schedule sucks for the next couple weeks, but I think I should be able to have it up and running within a few days. The really tough part is doing the coding on the WWW end, which I'll readily admit I'm pretty clueless about. Can't be the hardest thing in the world, right? :p

BTW It's also taking me a little longer with the BBS software because I'm picky and using Oblivion/2 instead of something free that has a telnet server built in. I always liked the ViSiON/OBV2/Celerity style boards the best. Lightbar ANSI menus were the hottest shit in 1995. If it gets too annoying I'll just switch to Renegade or Mystic which are supposedly much more user-friendly.

[johnx993]

nymetropolitans -

What's being used? What's the database, and what BBS will interface with it?

I haven't seen a requirements list, but from what I read there is a desire to read this stuff with actual vintage machines. Will only telnet-able machines be served by this? It would be sad if that were the case, as most of my collection does not have telnet access.


-J

[Lawrence Woodman]

I've been thinking about this some more and have noticed a possible problem if this ever gots off the ground. Depending on how we do this, there is one big difference between how vcforum works and how fidonet and many of the bbs'swork.

vcforum doesn't support true mult-threaded conversations.