Why?

[Erik]

Here's a simple question that someone just asked me. Why do you collect and use old computers?

I was a little surprised to be taken aback by the question. I figured I knew why I collected them, but the answer wasn't right there on the tip of my tongue for some reason.

In thinking about it I decided that my collection represents a logical merging of my fascination with history and my long-time association with computers.

That still doesn't quite explain the need to actually OWN these old machines, but it helps at least justify my interest in them.

How about you?

Erik

[tradde]

I collect mine because I first was introduced to comuters with a pdp-8/i.
From day one I was fascinated and hooked. I always knew I wanted to
get that 8i when it was scrapped, but never did. I now at least have an
8e to play with and to bring back those fond memories. It is alot of fun
getting these working again. There is so much software and so many people that know alot about them. Then later came exposure to the pdp-11 and I now have a few of those too. Even later came exposure to a pdp-10, but I don't have one of those. :)

[CP/M User]

"Erik" wrote in message:

Hi Erik,

> Here's a simple question that someone just asked me. Why do
> you collect and use old computers?

> I was a little surprised to be taken aback by the question. I
> figured I knew why I collected them, but the answer wasn't
> right there on the tip of my tongue for some reason.

> In thinking about it I decided that my collection represents a
> logical merging of my fascination with history and my
> long-time association with computers.

> That still doesn't quite explain the need to actually OWN
> these old machines, but it helps at least justify my interest in
> them.

> How about you?

I've had an Amstrad ever since they were released. I may not
use it as much now as when I first got it, but it's still there &
I do use it (usually if I'm not quite satisfied with the emulator).

My second computer was an IBM XT compatable, so it's no suprise
that I have a little thing for the ol' IBMs too. But the way the IBM
compatable computers are they don't interest me one little bit.

Since CP/M is the main connection between both machines, I have
an interest in CP/M, however a little while back I used to think it
was horrible, but since I learn to use it properly, I quite like it.

Besides playing some ol' fashioned games (on my Amstrad) I do
a little programming (as you well know) & since I saw CP/M-86
on the IBM limited towards the types of software, found it to be
quite interesting the way I could translate a DOS program to it.

Cheers.

[Jon Jarmon]

When I first used my own personal computer very few people had them back in the middle 1970's(it was pretty much a obscure electronic hobbiest oddity except for the serious mainframes and minicomputers field).

I was utilizing my personal computer in a math class to the amazement of the math teacher(also in a chemistry,physics and astronomy class).At first most of the school teachers would not permit them because they falsly believed that using a computer was cheating.I explained to my teachers that I had to program the mathematical algorithms to solve complex problems and knowing HOW to solve the problem was essentially knowing how to arrive at the correct solution,otherwise an incorrect answer would be garbage in-garbage out.
One teacher would not permit me using a computer though because she said that it was important to calculate mathematical problems by hand using simple addition,subtraction,multiplication and division.
I told that teacher that it was silly to use those methods in a trigonometry class and that someone who did not know basic math should NOT be in a trigonometry class in the first place.
Still most of the teachers permitted the use of a computer when I explained why using one was not cheating(well at that time you had to program it yourself).
Most of my teachers were AWED at how I finished their tests in only around 5 to 10 minutes time.
Later on I programmed huge differential and integral equations weaving them methodically into monster algorithmic equations that would take perhaps 50 man-years to solve by hand(It still took about a month of programming and de-bugging).
My first computer had no CRT display but it was no mere TOY even back then.

I realized that computing was a better way to solve many complicated algorithmic tasks more accurately and far more swift-To think differently as the Apple computer slogan later went.


The reason I collect old Personal Computers is to remember how they evolved,how we got here to this new amazing age of technological marvels and how computing has radically altered all of our lives now.

I'm sure we all are also trying to save digital artifacts (hopefully operational)as long as possible, so that future generations will want to view how and why their life was forever altered by the great ever evolving computer revolution.

Sadly even these artifacts will eventially fail electronically leaving only their non-functioning form.
At least emulators,the internet and digital archives of the bold old machines will still occassionally light up to educate future young students of computer archeology.

[Terry Yager]

No excuse...I just love 'em...
The first computer I ever bought was a TRS-80, which I purchased from a thrift store for $35.00. Never did get it to work, but spent countless hours trying. My next purchase was a Kaypro II, which I had to find software for. After calling every computer shop in the book, I finally hooked up with a collecter who turned me onto some bootdisks and other software. I've been hooked ever since. I cannot explain my facination with computers, I just am...

[CP/M User]

"Jon Jarmon" wrote in message:

> When I first used my own personal computer very few
> people had them back in the middle 1970's(it was pretty
> much a obscure electronic hobbiest oddity except for
> the serious mainframes and minicomputers field).

> I was utilizing my personal computer in a math class to
> the amazement of the math teacher(also in a chemistry,
> physics and astronomy class).At first most of the school
> teachers would not permit them because they falsly
> believed that using a computer was cheating.I explained
> to my teachers that I had to program the mathematical
> algorithms to solve complex problems and knowing
> HOW to solve the problem was essentially knowing how
> to arrive at the correct solution,otherwise an incorrect
> answer would be garbage in-garbage out.

> One teacher would not permit me using a computer
> though because she said that it was important to
> calculate mathematical problems by hand using simple
> addition,subtraction,multiplication and division.

She might of thought, you'd be carting in a Harvard Mark
I! (Well it just happens to be one of my favourite early
machines, even though I've only seen pictures of it).

> I told that teacher that it was silly to use those methods
> in a trigonometry class and that someone who did not
> know basic math should NOT be in a trigonometry class
> in the first place.

> Still most of the teachers permitted the use of a
> computer when I explained why using one was not
> cheating(well at that time you had to program it
> yourself).

> Most of my teachers were AWED at how I finished
> their tests in only around 5 to 10 minutes time.

> Later on I programmed huge differential and
> integral equations weaving them methodically into
> monster algorithmic equations that would take perhaps
> 50 man-years to solve by hand(It still took about a
> month of programming and de-bugging).

> My first computer had no CRT display but it was no
> mere TOY even back then.

> I realized that computing was a better way to solve
> many complicated algorithmic tasks more accurately
> and far more swift-To think differently as the Apple
> computer slogan later went.

> The reason I collect old Personal Computers is to
> remember how they evolved,how we got here to this
> new amazing age of technological marvels and how
> computing has radically altered all of our lives now.

> I'm sure we all are also trying to save digital
> artifacts (hopefully operational)as long as possible,
> so that future generations will want to view how and
> why their life was forever altered by the great ever
> evolving computer revolution.

> Sadly even these artifacts will eventially fail
> electronically leaving only their non-functioning form.

> At least emulators,the internet and digital archives of
> the bold old machines will still occassionally light up to
> educate future young students of computer archeology.

Geez, this reminds me of how lucky I was getting out of
school. When I did Yr12 in 1996, the school were trying
to get everyone doing Maths (unfortunately Maths wasn't
compolsery - but I chose it since I deemed it important)
a Graphical Calculator. They told me that you didn't
need one to do the exam, but they recommended it
(sounds like Microsoft don't they!). Anyway I took my
ol' Scientific Calculator to the Exam & passed it with
flying colours! :-) I still have my Scientific Calculator
today & I think for what it does, it's essential for
computing particularly because of the Hexidecimal,
Decimal, Binary & Octal it supports.

The following year I did a computer course & just about
everyone there had the ol' scientific calculator (so I
more or less had the advanced version!).

Cheers.

[barryp]

Here's a simple question that someone just asked me. Why do you collect and use old computers?

I have a neighbor who has several old Fords. One is about 1965 and another is mid-thirties and others are just parts. I'm sure he's asked why he doesn't get a new car and get rid of them. (He's always working on them) I suppose that he/I/we just like them and someone who doesn't will never understand nor see much sense to it.

[CP/M User]

"barryp"] wrote in message:

>> Here's a simple question that someone
>> just asked me. Why do you collect
>> and use old computers?

> I have a neighbor who has several old
> Fords. One is about 1965 and another is
> mid-thirties and others are just parts. I'm
> sure he's asked why he doesn't get a new
> car and get rid of them. (He's always
> working on them) I suppose that he/I/we
> just like them and someone who doesn't
> will never understand nor see much
> sense to it.

I agree. Even if they do ask that question,
I belive any answer you'd give them is
unacceptable. I don't treat that question
as a question, I see that as a way of telling
someone to mind their own business.

Cheers.

[Thomas Hillebrandt]

Here's a simple question that someone just asked me. Why do you collect and use old computers?

It's great fun :sly: ...

I'm a collector, genetically. In fact, I could be called a super-collector by genetics. My maternal grandfather was a collector, my mother was a collector AND my father was a collector. I've collected a lot of things in my life, and most collections I still have. (We often joke that I collect collections).

Coins, stamps, ball-point pens, rocks, records...I've collected it...

But not until I gave computers a shot, did I find something that keeps my interest without fading over time. So it's the ultimate collectible, to me at least.

And it IS great fun. Many machines have nostalgic value, because I played with them as a kid. But most are just a great peek at the history I was part of...

[CP/M User]

"Thomas Hillebrandt" wrote in message:

>> Here's a simple question that someone
>> just asked me. Why do you collect and
>> use old computers?

> It's great fun...

> I'm a collector, genetically. In fact, I could
> be called a super-collector by genetics. My
> maternal grandfather was a collector, my
> mother was a collector AND my father was
> a collector. I've collected a lot of things in
> my life, and most collections I still have.
> (We often joke that I collect collections).

> Coins, stamps, ball-point pens, rocks,
> records...I've collected it...

As long as it's a collectable! :-)

Cheers.

[Erik]

Coins, stamps, ball-point pens, rocks, records...I've collected it...

But not until I gave computers a shot, did I find something that keeps my interest without fading over time. So it's the ultimate collectible, to me at least.

And it IS great fun. Many machines have nostalgic value, because I played with them as a kid. But most are just a great peek at the history I was part of...

I agree wholeheartedly. I've collected (and still collect) a lot of things but computers and related items have held my interest and passion for the longest.

I'm also convinced that the much of the history of computers is at great risk to being lost for the ages because of the super-fast replacement cycle and how quickly equipment goes from state-of-the-art to useless.

Helping to preserve aspects of this history are also important to me (which is why I try so hard to collect old magazines, ads and newsletters).

Erik

[CP/M User]

"Erik" wrote in message:


> I agree wholeheartedly. I've collected (and still
> collect) a lot of things but computers and related
> items have held my interest and passion for the
> longest.

> I'm also convinced that the much of the history
> of computers is at great risk to being lost for
> the ages because of the super-fast replacement
> cycle and how quickly equipment goes from
> state-of-the-art to useless.

> Helping to preserve aspects of this history are
> also important to me (which is why I try so
> hard to collect old magazines, ads and
> newsletters).

I agree too. I feel history is important because
it's shown us what happens in regards to
everything. Without them, no-one will know
what something was like. It's like asking an
egyptian how they built a Pymanid, the
documents seems to have been mislaid & no-one
really knows how they built them back in the
early days! :-)

[Jon Jarmon]

From CP/M USER
I agree too. I feel history is important because
it's shown us what happens in regards to
everything. Without them, no-one will know
what something was like. It's like asking an
egyptian how they built a Pymanid, the
documents seems to have been mislaid & no-one
really knows how they built them back in the
early days! :-)

************************************************** ********
CP/M User you hit it right on the nose.That was a EXCELLENT response and one of my major reasons for collecting older computers.
Bless you Aussie cousins.I wish that all you computer collector people were my next door neighbors.

[Thomas Hillebrandt]

I wish that all you computer collector people were my next door neighbors.

That could make for some fun neighborhood parties :)

No, actually, I think it's rather good that we're not all neighbors! Imagine the fights we'd have at the local fleamarkets and boot-sales... :lol:

[Jon Jarmon]

You are right Thomas.I see your point.Then again some of us collectors are machine specific collectors.I like especially to collect Apple Stuff althought I do have IBM and some other oft brands.
Hey we could trade parts and machines easier,but then again there WOULD BE FIGHTS.I AGREE.I wish we could hold a collector group party.My dad goes to his B17 bomber U.S.A.A.C. 463rd bomb group reunions.It would be cool if somehow at least a bunch of us could hold a party.

[Erik]

It would be cool if somehow at least a bunch of us could hold a party.

Check out the Vintage Computer Festival (http://www.vintage.org). It amounts to a geek party for those who collect computers. I went (and exhibited) last year and intend to do so again if I can get my stuff back in time.

Erik

[Jon Jarmon]

Thanks Eric! Maybe Americans could go there and foreigners could go to computer festivals in their own countries(unless of course they want to fork over a lot of Ca$H in travel expensives to go to the Vintage Computer festival.I never knew it existed.I'm interested but live up north in Washinton State.Perhaps I should plan a CAL trip.Probably next years to see the Silicon sites.Hey it would be fun to meet you in person.
By the way Eric I saw a Vintage Macintosh forum on 68k macs.It's huge similar to your site about 68k mac specific machines.A Vintage collectors forum.It's called the 68k Macintosh Liberation Army.Since I especially collect old apple compact macs I joined their forum too.Even if a vintage guy is not into macs or apple stuff they would see how similar their site is to yours.

[Thomas Hillebrandt]

I've heard about the Vintage Computer Festival before...As in: I stumbled on the website for it once before...

It would be SO great to go there, but - alas - living in Denmark it's just too far. I'd have to suspend further vintage purchases for a year or two to pay for the trip alone :cry: ...Happily, I do know a few Danish collectors in my immediate area, and we're planning a get-together in August. 5 collectors, spending a day raving over outdated technology :D ..

The plan is that we all bring two machines to "show'n'tell"...I just can't decide which to bring :crazy: ...I think my Apple ][ europlus will be one of them, though - since I don't think the others have non-mac Apples... But, they're calling me Commodore-expert (dunno why), so I really should bring something Commodore. I'd bring a PET, only I don't have one!

Ah well...

[Erik]

It would be SO great to go there, but - alas - living in Denmark it's just too far.

Fear not. The VCF Europa (http://www.vcfe.org/E/) is probably a lot closer!

You just missed the 4.0 event, but 5.0 is only 11 months away!

Erik

[CP/M User]

"Jon Jarmon" wrote in message:

> Thanks Eric! Maybe Americans could go there and
> foreigners could go to computer festivals in their
> own countries(unless of course they want to fork
> over a lot of Ca$H in travel expensives to go to
> the Vintage Computer festival.I never knew it
> existed.I'm interested but live up north in
> Washinton State.Perhaps I should plan a CAL trip.
> Probably next years to see the Silicon sites.Hey it
> would be fun to meet you in person.

That's the problem, I don't see or hear about ANY
computer festivals here in Australia. Usually if they
do it's 900 kilometers or 750 kilometers (divide 1.6 for
the miles!) up or across the road! :-(

> By the way Eric I saw a Vintage Macintosh forum
> on 68k macs.It's huge similar to your site about
> 68k mac specific machines.A Vintage collectors
> forum.It's called the 68k Macintosh Liberation
> Army. Since I especially collect old apple compact
> macs I joined their forum too.Even if a vintage guy is
> not into macs or apple stuff they would see how similar
> their site is to yours.

Just to give you an idea what Aussies are like with
vintage stuff, yesturday (my Sunday) I check ebay
in UK which had 10 pages of new vintage computer
ads in it. I checked the Aussie site & it was only 1
page! :-(

[Thomas Hillebrandt]

Fear not. The VCF Europa (http://www.vcfe.org/E/) is probably a lot closer!

You just missed the 4.0 event, but 5.0 is only 11 months away!

Ho yus! Erik, my boy, you just made my day :wink: ...

München is still a good drive away, but all things considered it's doable. And if I join venture with the other Danish collectors I know, we can split the trip! Cool!

Thanks for the tip! :mrgreen:

[DoctorPepper]

I suppose the answer that I would give without thinking would be "To save them from the landfill or worse", but that doesn't really cover all of it.

I got started with computers in mid-1982. I was in the Navy (U.S.), and had just been assigned to a teaching outfit near Virginia Beach, VA. One of my "collateral" duties was to substitute for the student coordinators when I wasn't teaching. We were using a DEC PDP/11-7 something or other, I no longer remember exactly. I was given an account on the computer, and from that moment on, I was hooked.

Later that year, I bought a VIC-20. I kept it for about four months, then got the C-64. I progressed through the TRS-80's (Model 4 / 4P's), then got my first "almost" IBM compatible (Tandy 1000).

I'm going to be 44 years old next month, and I suppose my facination with collecting antique micro computers and their books could be attributed to "middle-age crazy". Either way, I think it really brings me back to a time when computers were actually fun to use, and not just a job.

[olddataman]

It occured to me that when we mention that one very good reason for collecting them is to preserve their history before it is lost forwver. I did a quick brain scan trying to think of something comparable in some way. It struck me that their is a product on the market that costs a lot and yet is made obsolete almost yearly by new developments,and while it will cost you a thousand to fifteen hundred dollars or more this year will be worth a few bucks in a yard sale in a year of two. Yet I don't know of anyone who collects them and so their history is disappearing as fast as their replacemets are designed. That is the Golf Club!
COMMENTS, OR OTHER EXAMPLES?

[Terry Yager]

COMMENTS, OR OTHER EXAMPLES?

Yeah, anything ever invented by Ron Popiel. They come and they go, and are soon forgotten. When's the last time you saw a Veg-O-Matic?

--T

[CP/M User]

"olddataman" wrote:

> It occured to me that when we mention that one very good reason for
> collecting them is to preserve their history before it is lost forwver. I did
> a quick brain scan trying to think of something comparable in some
> way. It struck me that their is a product on the market that costs a lot
> and yet is made obsolete almost yearly by new developments,and while
> it will cost you a thousand to fifteen hundred dollars or more this year
> will be worth a few bucks in a yard sale in a year of two. Yet I don't
> know of anyone who collects them and so their history is disappearing
> as fast as their replacemets are designed. That is the Golf Club!

> COMMENTS, OR OTHER EXAMPLES?

Yes firstly, even though Computers decrease in value very quickly, it's fairly much the same as a car, which while it doesn't loose it's value as fast, it still does it. Also, like cars people collect the old computers - you don't see anyone going around collecting a series of new cars, but they do it for old cars - don't they!

However, it's interesting to note, that people have started collecting IBM compatables, like XTs, PCJnrs, 286s, 386s, 486s etc & have started playing around with their capabilities (not necessarily poke around with the Motherboard). Using the right software, these are still interesting machines, but it's when people start looking what can it run, they obviously show their age - those machines are better off running what was written for them & not what can it run.

It's fun if you do this in layers, firstly you can pick an OS targeted for that system, then a programming language for that system & applications available for that system.
Virtually all the above mentioned systems & other early IBM based systems, can do command line based OSes, GUIs are a little bit trickier, however get trickier when they become big. For example OS/2 Warp runs fine on a 386, but applications tend to drag it into a 486 is recommended slant. Pre Warp is perhaps a better 386 alternative, because you're not looking into Warp software. And then you have the issues about is Warp back compatable with earlier software. Windows 3.x is simular, because again you have software which recommends a 486 over a 386.
GUIs are basically the reason why people upgrade all the time & it's more involved more now as last years machines are suddenly twice as slow as the most current computer!

But just getting back to the old programming ways, the reason why programming languages used to sit on a layer lower than an application was because you could talk to the machines hardware as well as the system, compiled programs may 'talk' to the machines hardware, but the end user has no control over it (unless they poked into it - which again is programming) - they just do what the program allows.

CP/M User.

[Mad-Mike]

However, it's interesting to note, that people have started collecting IBM compatables, like XTs, PCJnrs, 286s, 386s, 486s etc & have started playing around with their capabilities (not necessarily poke around with the Motherboard). Using the right software, these are still interesting machines, but it's when people start looking what can it run, they obviously show their age - those machines are better off running what was written for them & not what can it run.


Lol, That's where I'm at, it's called "The Next Generation of computer collectors". I was born around the same time as the IBM XT came out (1983), so while many who are old enough to remember the PDP's and IMSAI machines, my first experience was on the IBM PS/2's and white box AT clones of the late 80's.

Some of it is nostalgia for those old AT clones I used to hammer on as a little kid in school. Some of it is because I find it fun as heck to work on hardware, and the older and more bizzare the more fun it is to work on (with the most fun coming from stuff that involves soldering irons and reading pinout charts and so-on). Some of it is playing those games and enjoying strange perhipherals and luxuries on the hardware that me and the family could not afford when I was 8 (I have a 486 I rebuilt to specs that would have cost between $8000-10000 in 1993 all for around $30 total not counting external perhipherals). Then there's the construction aespect too. I love working with my hands for fun, and it's kind of fun to take an old bent up computer chassis, straighten it out, repaint it, modify it to modern standards or put some really hot old hardware under the hood, and make it scream. I find it just as fun to even sell it off and pass it to someone else (with me often willing to give tech support on my creations). Just out of collecting, rebuilding, recycling, and modifying old IBM compatibles, I have learned what's taken others 20 years to learn. I've known some "been there done that" techs who still miss something such as low level formatting hard drives (and why to or why to not do it).

It kind of bugs me how many people just don't "get it" though, mainly being those that ask why, as I find most of them are the same ones who go "why not just buy one NEW computer" and continue to nag me on about this year after year, whilst I'm getting along fine on the hardware I've built myself for peanuts out of old battered GEMs, IBMs, and Compaqs. My thought is the same as someone said about the same situation earlier in this thread "Mind Your Own Business". Maybe some people do allright with one HP Pavilion desktop of current vintage, but that person just is not me.

[Terry Yager]

Mad-Mike, you're a man after my own heart. People used to not understand when I told them that out of the 150-odd computers they saw sittin around my house, that I only had one computer that was actually useful. All the rest were just my toys to play with, and the one useful one was arguably the dumbest one of the bunch. For years, I considered my 32Kb Tandy 102 my only useful computer, on the theory that I have only one real use for a computer, one task that I can do better with a computer than without, and that's writing. I was doing a lot of writing at the time, and all of it was done on the 102, hence, my only useful computer, with one-tenth the memory of the lowliest XT in the house.

--T

[CP/M User]

"Mad-Mike" wrote:

> It kind of bugs me how many people just don't "get it" though, mainly
> being those that ask why, as I find most of them are the same ones who
> go "why not just buy one NEW computer" and continue to nag me on
> about this year after year, whilst I'm getting along fine on the hardware
> I've built myself for peanuts out of old battered GEMs, IBMs, and
> Compaqs. My thought is the same as someone said about the same
> situation earlier in this thread "Mind Your Own Business". Maybe some
> people do allright with one HP Pavilion desktop of current vintage, but
> that person just is not me.

I think people who don't "get it" generally bug everyone here - after all it's something we all have in common. Usually that group of people just think we're nuts - even though they have no status when it comes to be judgeamental & no idea when it comes to how many groups are out there supporting their old computer systems.

Besides that, the only real differences we have maybe opinions about what's good & bad.

Todays society have learned to embrace an upgrade every 3 or 4 years, so the software companies have looked into ways of updating software automatically - particularly when you're on the Internet. And then there's the con artists writing programs which aren't necessarily viruses, but annoying programs which slow down your computer.

They should start thinking about going back to the lowest demonitor, find which computer which runs Windows XP successfully well & write software for it.

CP/M User.

[olddataman]

Doctor Pepper wrote:...
Either way, I think it really brings me back to a time when computers were actually fun to use, and not just a job.

I agree with his thoght 100%, but it illustrates a point I have spent many hours trying to think of a way to demonstrate. I feel the same kind of nostalga, except that the computers I think about as being "fun" and challenging and demanding of ones knoswledge and experience are the machines from the 1960s and early 1970's when we fixed computers at the component level, trouble-shot by using the console switches and lights to enter short programs that gradually caused the trouble to reveal itself and used the logic equations to verify that the trouble was isolated, then determine what component was failing to act right using a good scope and then repaired the card that was failing. Great fun and occasioinally good for a 96 hour week, but man oh man did you feel good when it was working again. These miccrocomputers are so filled with monster chips with all of the logic inside that it takes a guy with a PHD in solid state physics and another in electronics and I don't know what all to design the chips and nobody knows what is inside them. How many of those of you that were born after 1970 or so know what a "flip/flop" or a "Johnson Counter" or a "One-Shot MV" are?
Ray

[Terry Yager]

The flip-flop, the one-shot & the MultiVibrator I get, but did hackers back in the day really count each other's johnsons?

--T

[olddataman]

Terry, you are a scream. There are various types of Jonson Counters, but I never ran acoss any like you describe. The Johnson couters I refer to are a string of flip-flops connectd in s loop. depending on the type of flp-flop and the way they are cloccked and connect togther, you can make a whole variety of timing functions.
as an example from a single Johnson counter you can decode all of the timing singles needed to develop a televixion raster.
Ray

[Terry Yager]

Oh, ok. I just conjured an image of a buncha geeks standing around in a circle...

--T

[patscc]

No, no, in a square. The ones in the circle would be nerds, wouldn't they ?
Because, of course, only nerds wouldn't be able to figure out it's called a circle-j***

Just tapped into this thread, God only knows where it's been, so I may be a bit off-topic, but hey...

Johnston counters were popular for a while, because with them you could avoid the noticable 'glitch' that took place when back-propagating through tons of gates to restart the count.
The simple elegance of them kinda faded with Motorolas 100K ECL family.

Some one said they were used in TV's, a reference would be apprecieted, I do recall early RCA and Zenith sets. when they started to use counters to count of the horizontal retrace, doing som ewierd stuff, but I've never seen a Johnson implementation to handle vertical counts in a TV.

Other stuff, I agree with Mad Mike, I gotta get under the hood.
I've been futzing around with Windows since it was just a yet another dos shell.

I haven't noticed any real increase in speed. In the sense of turning it on, and it's ready to do some work.
I recently put DOS 3.3 on a P4/Xeon. I turned it on, it was there, at my command. Now I could decide, what to load.
I like that bit, decide what to load.
What I can't stand about Windows, and current versions of Linux, is that everything loads up front.
I much prefer the older 'simpler' OS's, that load quickly, sure, they're dumb, and it's up to you to load the smarts.
I mean, folks, really, do I need to suffer through the soundcard driver loading when I turn my system on, especially if it's going to be something like an FTP server ?
Pooh.
I sure do hope some of this is on topic to something, somewhere.

Patscc

[Mad-Mike]

.
I mean, folks, really, do I need to suffer through the soundcard driver loading when I turn my system on, especially if it's going to be something
like an FTP Server.
Patscc

That's why I like the old AT standard better, everything is on a card. Just use what you need. Who needs 3-D accelerated NVIDIA graphics, 3-D digial 5.1 audio, much less the fancy speakers to be driven or the huge 19" DVI XGA monitor to go with it. If I were to make a web server, it'd just be a bare, plain, beige tower, a network card, a VGA card, and something to drive the floppy, CD-ROM/RW, and hard disks (and of course a simple little mobo with a CPU).

The great thing I loved about DOS 6 and later is that you could do a multiple boot config. Most of my Windows 3.1 machines have 3 menu options.....

1.) Boot Clean - Great for removing conflicting memory management or for performing "administration" on the system
2.) Load DOS with drivers for old games and programs that require them, usually with everything that can be tagged into high memory thrown there so I can get almost all of my 640K base RAM back.
3.) Load Windows For Workgroups 3.11, obvious, and as of late I've been toying with ditching this for Arachne. I hardly chat on AOL Instant Message anymore, might as well just simplify my systems.

I've done too much work under the hood. I've had so much odd and strange old IBM compatible hardware over my time working on said machines that little seems new to me, I need to get more into the software aespect, then that's why I'm starting to learn C+ and Assembly when I feel the motivation to do so.

[ueoguy]

Hello all,

I'm relatively new to the list, but sadly not new to the hobby? I collect because I'm predisposed to it. I collect everything!...er well except door knobs....I had to draw the line somewhere! Before hobby computers, and yes I'm that old, I collected computing gun-sights, and Bombsights, like the Norden and the Serry S-1, then Teletypes, then all types of military surplus, aircraft radios, just a lot of tech stuff. You name it, I've probably had it and sold it, still have it, or know the SOB that beat me to it on ebay!
Just to show you how bad it is, I even have a working, STRATUS XA-2000 Model 80, in my collection!...running VOS! How many people on the list can say that!?!?! How many people on the list even know what I'm talking about?

Okay, I guess you have figured out that I am probably certifiable, single, and maybe even a geek? And yes I probably would have been stoned as a herectic in ancient times, (who knows, maybe I was, reincarnation and all), but I enjoy sharing the stories and the experiences of others and with others.

When it comes to the Altairs, and IMSAI's it's probably a Mid-Life crisis kinda thing?...I built my first one in '76 upgraded it and eventually morphed it into a Compupro of sorts, and sold it all for $500 in the mid 80's to help fund a Macintosh. Then about 7 years ago I started picking up every board I could find, until I had assembled my ultimate Altair "b" system! But now just knowing that I can walk into the " Gallery" in my home, flip a few switches, here the click of a Pertec FD-400 head load, and that little machine gun noise from the 33 that says "MEMORY SIZE?", is kinda like the smell of fresh coffee in the morning, (okay Mountain Dew for the die-hards), a little thing that makes me feel comfortable, that all is right with the world, and it makes me feel good!

Hey that's the answer! It makes me feel good, hell I feel great! That's why I collect! Do you think that reason would fly if I had a wife and kids?

Okay that's why I'm single! What can I, say I'm a sucker for anything with a set of flashing lights! That, and my "lounge edicate" leaves room for improvement....Hey baby, nice rack....mounts...are you booting anyone else currently?....wanna toggle, or go right to the PROM?...Did I mention that I was certifiable???

UEOGUY===something else I majorly collect!

[/img]

[CP/M User]

"patscc" wrote:

> I recently put DOS 3.3 on a P4/Xeon. I turned it on, it was there, at
> my command. Now I could decide, what to load.
> I like that bit, decide what to load.

> What I can't stand about Windows, and current versions of Linux, is that
> everything loads up front.

> I much prefer the older 'simpler' OS's, that load quickly, sure, they're
> dumb, and it's up to you to load the smarts.

Why would they have to be dumb? The beauty of DOS is you can easily set it up have your drivers going whatever, it's a great feature.

CP/M User.

[patscc]

CP/M User:Why would they have to be dumb? The beauty of DOS is you can easily set it up have your drivers going whatever, it's a great feature.

Basically, that's what I meant. Perhaps dumb was a poor choice of word, I picked it to illustrate that out of the box, DOS only runs a few simple services. I meant 'dumb' in the best possible way.
Windows, and the 'default' installation of a lot of the current Linux distribs, install and run everthing and the kitchen sink.
It's just that with DOS, old versions of Linux, OS/2, you've got a lot more control over what loads, and when it loads, than with current versions Windows.
My preference in an OS is to extend it with drivers and apps, rather than something that has a massive footprint and loads all sorts of stuff behind my back.
Sorry if anyone got the impression I was picking on DOS or CP/M'

patscc

[mbbrutman]

I grew up drooling over this hardware. I became aware of personal computers around 1981 and devoured everything I could about them. My parents supported my habbit, which even though it wasn't a lot of money was still quite a bit more than normal hobbies, like baseball card collecting.

At school I used original Apple ][s and ][+s, ranging from 16K to 48K RAM. My first machine at home was a Timex Sinclar 1000, which I still have but is in a state of disrepair. (Keyboard problems, and all of the software has probably suffered bit rot.)

My second machine was the PCjr, which was far more capable than the C64s, Adams, and other machines people were buying. It cost a lot of money too - I had to deliver a lot of newspapers to swing that. (NYC doesn't have paperboys anymore .. that faded out over the last 20 years.)

The PCjr got me to college before I finally upgraded to a used IBM PC AT. Compared to a PC or XT it was limited, but I didn't compare it to those machines. I compared it to what I did the day before, and I kept finding ways to make better use of it. Back then WordStar 3.31 was my word processor and Procomm 2.4.3 was my most used program. Zbasic, Turbo Pascal, etc. were all heavily used too. I did a lot of programming and learned a lot of computer science on that machine.

After college I went to work for IBM. It was almost destiny. I'm a lot more cynical now about it though. :-)

The Jr was in hiding from 1992 to 2000. I dusted it off once or twice during the years. Finally in 2000 it occured to me that I had to start writing about the machine and archiving the software, or it was going to go to the bit bucket. And so I wrote 'Mike's PCjr Page' (http://www.brutman.com). That put me in touch with a lot of other like minded people, and started a mini-PCjr revival.

I'm not primarily a collector. I have a lot of PCjr equipment, but I'm more interested in seeing it to archive it or describe it for other people to use. There are a lot of things I'll never obtain because they are so rare, but that's ok - I just want to see them once, learn what they are, and make that available for other people.

As for other machines, I appreciate them all. Back in the early to mid 1980s machines were diverse and varied. The Apple ][s, C64s, Ataris, Tandy TRS-80 line, the Mindset, the Jupiter Ace, the Sinclairs, etc. are all fascinating to me for their variety. I love the PC, XT, and AT because they represent wonderful designs. I'm quite a bit less partial to clones, and completely indifferent to modern machines.

Mike

[CP/M User]

"patscc" wrote:

>> Why would they have to be dumb? The beauty of DOS is you can
>> easily set it up have your drivers going whatever, it's a great feature.

> Basically, that's what I meant. Perhaps dumb was a poor choice of
> word, I picked it to illustrate that out of the box, DOS only runs a few
> simple services. I meant 'dumb' in the best possible way.

Perhaps 'Low maintenance' is what you're looking for. Those early Operating Systems don't need a lot of Maintenance done for them & -you- can add the stuff you want, instead of having the system adding whatever bloatware it -thinks- you need.

To put it simply, designing an Operating System for -Everyone- to use Suxs! The foot has changed & now it's the Computers telling us what to do, instead of -US- telling the computers what we want.

In theory, this makes Kubricks/Arthur C. Clarke's 2001 vision more realistic based on the time where in.

> Windows, and the 'default' installation of a lot of the current Linux
> distribs, install and run everthing and the kitchen sink.

And then the Internet comes into play & decides to download bloatware which your system don't support. Internet for DOS rocks, because unlike Windows which the Internet wants to add pain & misery to the OS itself, to DOS the Internet is a seperate application away, no added mess for this system. Bit sad to see Arachne has simmered down! Has Internet DOS given up? I thought it was great - I only had a 386 notebook running at 16Mhz, 61Mb Hard Disk & 4 Mb of memory (which I added to make it usable! ;-) You wouldn't do it on Windows with that Kind of Setup.

> It's just that with DOS, old versions of Linux, OS/2, you've got a lot
> more control over what loads, and when it loads, than with current
> versions Windows.

Yes and as I said, Computer Operating Systems Nowdays tend to add it's bloat which you don't want (there's no choice - except close it which is a pain), I'm still hacking into Window's INI Files to delete stuff which I don't want, it's insane. As least with DOS you knew what was what & could use it if you wanted it (not just have it install all by itself). Automated Computer Systems Suck.

> My preference in an OS is to extend it with drivers and apps, rather than
> something that has a massive footprint and loads all sorts of stuff
> behind my back.

Ditto.

> Sorry if anyone got the impression I was picking on DOS or CP/M'

Oh well, I just thought it was funny to be calling it a dumb system, when the proper person can come along & load specific systems depending on the type of use being involved.

CP/M User.

[Computer Collector]

Actually, Im basicly interested in a lot of old stuff, especially old electronics. For some reason I like to collect and use stuff thats been rejected by society. Perhaps its my way of "rebelling". I like rare stuff thats cool, and old vintage computers are rare and cool. I have no interest in boring crap like jewelry.

[CP/M User]

"Computer Collector" wrote:

> Actually, Im basicly interested in a lot of old stuff, especially old
> electronics. For some reason I like to collect and use stuff thats been
> rejected by society. Perhaps its my way of "rebelling".

Glad I'm not the old one. But geez, I'm only 27 & computing has changed since I was more or less into it back in the 1980s & 1990s. These programs for Windows 2000 are shocking, you can't even type a letter in Word or something & it changes it to a little symbol. For example I typed in 1A (space), instantly this A is changed into a tiny A. To undo this I have to go back, type it again & have some other letter after it, then space, then arrow back & delete the second letter, then arrow back to my spot. I have no idea how to change this, but this is highly annoying.
I mean if I wanted something bloody well done to that letter, I'd alter it myself. Sometimes it also gets me when the computer reconizes a word typed incorrectly & changes it to the correct spelling - but what if I wanted a word typed incorrectly?
Anyway there must be a way of changing it to manual - after all I don't want this stupid system guessing everying I want.

Well anyway that's my little Rant!
CP/M User.

[vic user]

Well anyway that's my little Rant!

i think a lot of people feel like you do about auto-correcting.
it is a massive pain!

chris

[patscc]

CP/M User:Word...

It's one of the AutoCorrect options, and you should be able to turn it off. Should be under tools->Autocorrect or tools->options->.... depending on version. If you can't find it, PM me and I'll try to walk you through.
I gotta keep all of that stuff turned off or I go outa my gourd. Well, not all. I will say I like the turn 1/2 into a proper looking fraction one, but all the rest gotta go.

If you're tired of word, there's write, which is bare-bones, or Textpad, which is more a programmers editor, but has a spell-checker, tons of non-Word stuff to use when you want to get some work done, instead of trying to figure out how formatting flows from section to section.

patscc

[Chris2005]

Alot of this stuff is going to disappear unless someone saves it. That's the impetus for me when it involves a long drive, or I'm just bored with it on that particular day. Not too many people find the compatibles or not-so-compatibles as that unique or interesting -HMMMMM, MAYBE A VERY GOOD REASON I NEED TO WORK HARDER!!! Software, being so much more volatile in nature then the hardware, is even more precious :D in my book. Right, like you all don't talk all nice to your old puters!
I have this project in the back of my mind. I generally avoid things with custom ic's, being that they're harder to replace than stock chips. But what about that one unit you'd like to see run way into the future. Now most of us don't have access to fab plants, but all this stuff started out as big boards of discrete logic. It would be fun (and probably crazy) to replicate some irreplaceable chips function with a bunch of standard chips.

[kdulcimer]

The reason I have my old TRS-80 and Tandy laptops is that I use them! They're great for typing up a letter, and I love getting my alarm program out and hacking out a new version of it. These things will run for well over 30 hours on one charge of 4 NiMH AAs. And I do "flying laptop" demonstrations with them every once in a while. Try that with your new Dell!

[Terry Yager]

The reason I have my old TRS-80 and Tandy laptops is that I use them! They're great for typing up a letter, and I love getting my alarm program out and hacking out a new version of it. These things will run for well over 30 hours on one charge of 4 NiMH AAs. And I do "flying laptop" demonstrations with them every once in a while. Try that with your new Dell!

I have a fairly recent (2000) hand-held that I'll go head-to-head with you in the drop test, if you'll compare coffee-spilled-on-the-keyboard results with me. (I've done both with my Itronix 5200, but it really sux for typing on).

--T

[olddataman]

i GUESS i HAVE POSTED TO THIS QUESTION BEFORE, BUT IN RE-READING THE POSTS TODAY SOMETHING OCCURED TO ME THAT MAY BE WORTH WHILE STATING HERE.
fOR MANY YEARS I HAVE BEEN SAYING (MOSTLY TO DEAF EARS, I ADMIT) THAT "THE REASON THAT COMPUTERS ARE SO FASCINATING AND SO MUCH FUN IS THAT A COMPUTER IS THE NEAREST THING MAN HAS EVER MADE OR PROBABLY EVER WILL MAKE TO A MACHINE WITH AN INFINTE NUMBER OF STATES.
RAY

[carlsson]

Do other people than computer scientists and alike understand that message? I would rather say something like "a computer can do so many things, almost infinite number of different tasks". I do recoginze that speaking about states is technically more correct but at least for the people I know, it would "go unnoticed above their heads".

[olddataman]

Anders;
I know what you mean, and I don't entirely disagree, but it took me quite some time to come up with the fewest words I could to express the whole idea. It sort of remnds me of "An infinate number of monkeys "Another version of that says: Give a thousand programmers a problem with instructions for each one to write a program to solve the problem. You will rrd up with a thousand different programs, each of which will solve the problem (Of course they all have to have identical computers and program in Assembly Language)

Ray[/b]

[carlsson]

Ayep, I know what you mean. In one of the newsgroups I read, someone issued a task which most seasoned programmers thought impossible, despite that the issuer offered several hundred or thousands of dollars to anyone who could write him the program. Like money can make your computer better.. well, without investing it on hardware.

Anyway, we had a self-proclaimed programmer - who had not managed to publish a single, working program - who took on the task and start to post progress reports saying that 27% of the program was done and so on. I'm not sure he even had drawn the loading screen. The he started to post nonsense machine code snippets that were clearly cut'n'pasted from a web page.

Someone else, who was long-time tired of this self-proclaimed joker, challenged him and everyone else on a programming task: implement bubble sort in assembly language, something that should take you far less than 30 minutes if you are skilled, maybe even 5 minutes if you are up to date. The question was in how many ways you can write this routine without someone accusing you of copying someone else's code. All the entries were published on a secret web page which you got access to after submitting your own entry.

Not surprisingly, all entries looked different to some point, and the non-working code the super programmer finally came up with was three times as long as anyone else's.. :roll: Since then, I think the close to impossible project was scrapped.

This challenge had other side effects; after I had implemented bubble sort in machine code, I spent a few days to implement quick sort too. Someone else implemented quick sort, merge sort, shell sort and some more. It could maybe become a code base. His and mine quick sort looked completely different and was of different complexity too.

[olddataman]

I, on the other hand, couldn't program my way out of a paper bag!
The only progams I ever wrote that were of any use to anyone but me were Interrupt processing routines and/or Mag. Tape handleers. Most of my efforts were in writing trouble shooting routines. I was pretty damn good at debugging other people's programs One learns that skill when one has to prove to pogrammers that it doesn't matter how adamant they are about not having made any changes in the software, if there are errors in the output, the software must be the culprit. So one takes the programmer's listings and sits down and studies them until one finds the buggy code and shows it to the programmer who says:"but I only changed one non-critical statement in the source code and that shouldn't cause any errors in the output".
I hope that makes sense. The font is so small and my old eyes are so bad that I am not always sure.
Ray

[patscc]

I've on occasion taken a Panasonic 1400 to work, with concept code hacked out in SNAP. For some reason, when you shove a 20+ plus year old machine under a managers nose, and generate a print out, and say 'look, the problem is really not that complicated, this has been done before' that seems to give management more confidence to say, 'Uh, okay, maybe we're going overboard on this, maybe we can make it simpler'
In any field, understanding history means you are aware of the mistakes that have been made. That is an important part of education.
It also teaches humility, there's nothing like figuring out how to do something, and to then later discover that someone did it x number of years ago.

patscc

[olddataman]

You are right, of course, but I thought you might get a kick out of what happened to me along those lines in about 1968,
At the time we were looking for pointing devices and coordinate digitizing devices. It occured to me that this might be a perfect applicatiion for the new (at that time) conductive plastics. So I sat mt boss down over coffee a couple days later and told hime about my idea and that it could lead toa patent, so competitors could not simply buy the original designs and have them manufactured to specs., while we could, assuming we got it developed first. Well, he thought it was a very good idea and asked me to keep working on it and he would get back to me in a week or so to see how I was doing. He called me into his office a few days later and told me he had some good news and some bad news. The good news was tha tmy idea was sound and such a device would probably make it's inventor of record famous and maybe rich. The bad news was that someone in Italy had already done almost exactly what I had proposed and had already applied for a patent on it.
Old stuff may embarass a user occasionally. But new ideas can also embarass and hurt a fellow even ,more.
Ray

[Micom 2000]

I'm reminded about my professor in digital electronics who always referred to the CPU as a "mighty machine that is only limited by your ability to use it". When he would express "MIGHTY" he would open each arms as to a god.

Lawrence