Prized posession

[Erik]

I think that each of us has a vintage machine or two in their collection that they value over the rest. Even in a small collection one machine probably stands out.

If I were to name mine it would be one of two machines. Either my "original" IBM PC (64K motherboard, black power supply, original manuals including DOS 1.0) or one of my Altair 8800s.

The PC was the first computer that I ever owned. Although the example in my collection isn't actually my original machine, it's almost exactly like it. The manuals are the ones I bought in 1981 with the original machine.

The Altair is on my list both because of its historical significance and because of the fact that I'd always wanted one way back when.

As a funny aside, I used to attend the Trenton Computer Festival back in the early 1980s with a friend. This guy's plan was to pack his old station wagon full of as much crap as would fit and bring it to the show to sell (he usually split a vending booth with several other geeks). He would then use the proceeds to refill the car with new junk to bring home. On one trip I spotted an Altair 8800 with 2 8" drives and a terminal all put together into a nice rolling A/V style chassis, working and with manuals and software. The price was right (about $200, negotiable, as I recall) and I really wanted to buy it. Unfortunately, the wagon was already full and we couldn't figure how to get it home, so I had to pass. . .

Anyway, back on topic, what is your prized posession?

Erik

[CP/M User]

"Erik" wrote in message:

> I think that each of us has a vintage machine or two
> in their collection that they value over the rest.
> Even in a small collection one machine probably
> stands out.

Well, only one 8bitter I have! :-)

> If I were to name mine it would be one of two
> machines. Either my "original" IBM PC (64K
> motherboard, black power supply, original
> manuals including DOS 1.0) or one of my
> Altair 8800s.

Your a bit lucky since I know of a place where
you could download CP/M-86 v1.0, which I think
only runs on the IBM PC. Someone told me that
DOS 1.0 has no support for directories (which I
know), however they also told me it has no
support for User areas (which CP/M does), is
this true?

> The PC was the first computer that I ever owned.
> Although the example in my collection isn't a
> ctually my original machine, it's almost exactly
> like it. The manuals are the ones I bought in
> 1981 with the original machine.

Oh okay! :-)

> The Altair is on my list both because of its
> historical significance and because of the
> fact that I'd always wanted one way back
> when.

Please don't be offended, but I would have
thought a PDP would of had more historical
significance. Well I suppose they both have.
The PDP would have started the scene in
terms of computers which can do a variety
of tasks (well maybe EDSAC too), but the
PDP showed that technology was developing
& perhaps in 15-20 years down the track
something even smaller could accomplish
the same. The Altair certainally set the scene
with BASIC (I think, including all of those
machines - apart from the Jupiter ACE, to
have BASIC with it).

All I can say is I glad to have an Amstrad. I
don't know if I'd call it my prized possesion,
but the trouble is I've seen some nice systems
& what to do with them is beyond me. Doing
something with CP/M on my Amstrad & IBMs
maybe wonder if CP/M-86 could do as much
as DOS could. Seriously, most of my Turbo
Pascal 3 programs probably exceed it's
capabilities, but they still work. On the
Amstrad, learning about the Firmware it
provides could allow a ton of routines
incorporated into it.

I could dream on about having a PDP or
TI99/4a (which I do), but what do they
offer me. Is there anything which can be
done on those machines that hasn't for
example. I'm a bit of a you can always
learn an ol' dog new tricks kinda person
& unfortunately for something I only know
a little about, would mean spending more
time to learn about pushing the envelope.

Cheers.

[Erik]

Your a bit lucky since I know of a place where
you could download CP/M-86 v1.0, which I think
only runs on the IBM PC. Someone told me that
DOS 1.0 has no support for directories (which I
know), however they also told me it has no
support for User areas (which CP/M does), is
this true?


I have CP/M-86 version 1.0 with the manual. It's pretty much what you'd expect - an 8086 version of CP/M 2.2.

PC DOS 1.0 was complete crap and was quickly upgraded to 1.05 (to fix a major math bug in BASIC) and 1.10 (to add some needed features).

DOS 2.0 was the first version to support subdirectories.

Please don't be offended, but I would have
thought a PDP would of had more historical
significance. Well I suppose they both have.
The PDP would have started the scene in
terms of computers which can do a variety
of tasks (well maybe EDSAC too), but the
PDP showed that technology was developing
& perhaps in 15-20 years down the track
something even smaller could accomplish
the same. The Altair certainally set the scene
with BASIC (I think, including all of those
machines - apart from the Jupiter ACE, to
have BASIC with it).

The Altair is widely credited with starting the "PC" revolution. There were earlier PCs, for sure, but none had the success or the impact.

The PDPs were exceptional machines but weren't generally regarded as "personal" computers.

Erik

[CP/M User]

"Erik" wrote in message:

>> Your a bit lucky since I know of a place where
>> you could download CP/M-86 v1.0, which I think
>> only runs on the IBM PC. Someone told me that
>> DOS 1.0 has no support for directories (which I
>> know), however they also told me it has no
>> support for User areas (which CP/M does), is
>> this true?

> I have CP/M-86 version 1.0 with the manual. It's
> pretty much what you'd expect - an 8086 version
> of CP/M 2.2.

Yes CP/M-86 v1.0 & v1.1 do come from CP/M v2.2.
I use v1.1 on my 386 (since it's being modified to
run on the newer systems), it's just great getting
stuck into those CTRL-C when changing disks! :-)

> PC DOS 1.0 was complete crap and was quickly
> upgraded to 1.05 (to fix a major math bug in
> BASIC) and 1.10 (to add some needed features).

> DOS 2.0 was the first version to support
> subdirectories.

Yes. I got a book with has a short history of DOS.
So I'm to understand that PC-DOS 1.xx had no
user areas? (the type I'm referning to are like the
ones used in CP/M).

>> Please don't be offended, but I would have
>> thought a PDP would of had more historical
>> significance. Well I suppose they both have.
>> The PDP would have started the scene in
>> terms of computers which can do a variety
>> of tasks (well maybe EDSAC too), but the
>> PDP showed that technology was developing
>> & perhaps in 15-20 years down the track
>> something even smaller could accomplish
>> the same. The Altair certainally set the scene
>> with BASIC (I think, including all of those
>> machines - apart from the Jupiter ACE, to
>> have BASIC with it).

> The Altair is widely credited with starting the
> "PC" revolution. There were earlier PCs, for
> sure, but none had the success or the impact.

> The PDPs were exceptional machines but
> weren't generally regarded as "personal"
> computers.

Yes, I can understand that. While I do have a
picture of the PDP-1 system which is rather
large, the PDP-8 looks to be much smaller.

It's interesting to see that the Computer
Museum (http://www.old-computers.com/museum/)
I go to goes back to list the PDP-8 in there! :-)

Cheers.

[mbbrutman]

PCjrs are everywhere, so I tend to look for strange accessories ... Here are some:

-A several hundred piece puzzle put out by IBM Canada for marketing purposes.

-A sidecar called 'the megaboard' that can add up to 1MB of RAM of memory on a Jr. The memory is bank switched, like LIM memory, but it is not compatible with that spec.

-A pretty good SCSI sidecar that lets me hook up a 500MB SCSI drive, CD-ROM, Zip, etc.

-Homebrew 'mods' for increasing clock speed, altering the video controller, enabling extra drives, adding a serial port, etc. These are the most unique, and heavily reflect the owner of the machine.


Mike

[Erik]

-A pretty good SCSI sidecar that lets me hook up a 500MB SCSI drive, CD-ROM, Zip, etc.

I'm not sure why, but, IMO, SCSI on a PCjr is just about the peak of cool.

Erik

[CP/M User]

"Erik" wrote in message:

>> A pretty good SCSI sidecar that lets me hook up a 500MB
>> SCSI drive, CD-ROM, Zip, etc.

I think it's impressive you can do those things on a PCJr
IMO. Even the ZIP drive works on it? I thought it was a
mighty archievement getting a SuperDisk 120Mb & getting
it to go on my 386 w/ 4Mb! :-) I tried connecting it to my
IBM XT compatable, but it just would go. I can't remember
now (because it was a while back) if I was able to hook up
my 386 laptop to XT & have the superdisk hooked to the
386 & use a serial connection between the XT & 386 to
use it. I certainally remember accessing my small HD on
the 386 to the XT.

> I'm not sure why, but, IMO, SCSI on a PCjr is just about the
> peak of cool.

I not quite sure what you mean't, Erik. I'll just assume that
it would be cool to have a SCSI on the PCJr. I think having
a SCSI on any old system is cool! :-)

Cheers.

[mbbrutman]

Erik,

Thank you so much. Nobody has ever called a PCjr 'cool' in public. :-)

The SCSI sidecar runs a Future Domain chipset from the early 90s. It's smart enough to deal with several different brands of hard drive, my NEC 2x CD-ROM, and a SCSI Zip.

The hard drives and the SCSI Zip required no drivers - they were usable under DOS as is. The CD-ROM requires the standard generic SCSI CD-ROM driver and MSCDEX.

The Zip drive isn't bootable though - the stupid thing only allows you to choose SCSI address 5 or 6. DOS machines like to boot from 0. On my more modern P233 :-) I can tell the Adaptec card to boot from SCSI ID 5, which makes the Zip bootable. Not the Jr though - it can only boot from SCSI ID 0. Some hacking on the Zip drive might convince it otherwise. (It would be easy to swap the ID wires to fake SCSI address 0.)

Parallel port hard drives, CD-ROMs, etc. work too .. it's amazingly compatible.

Did I mention we had Ethernet adapters too? :-)

[CP/M User]

"mbbrutman" wrote in message:

> Thank you so much. Nobody has ever called a PCjr
> 'cool' in public. :-)

> The SCSI sidecar runs a Future Domain chipset from
> the early 90s. It's smart enough to deal with several
> different brands of hard drive, my NEC 2x CD-ROM,
> and a SCSI Zip.

> The hard drives and the SCSI Zip required no drivers
> - they were usable under DOS as is. The CD-ROM
> requires the standard generic SCSI CD-ROM driver
> and MSCDEX.

> The Zip drive isn't bootable though - the stupid thing
> only allows you to choose SCSI address 5 or 6.
> DOS machines like to boot from 0. On my more
> modern P233 :-) I can tell the Adaptec card to boot
> from SCSI ID 5, which makes the Zip bootable.
> Not the Jr though - it can only boot from SCSI ID 0.
> Some hacking on the Zip drive might convince it
> otherwise. (It would be easy to swap the ID wires to
> fake SCSI address 0.)

My superdisk is basically the same. I have an external
Parallel Port & the internal IDE versions. It definitely
cannot boot from the Parallel Port, but I think the
Internal one can (but it would need support from the
BIOS in order to do so I think).

> Parallel port hard drives, CD-ROMs, etc. work too ..
> it's amazingly compatible.

That's amazing! :-)

> Did I mention we had Ethernet adapters too? :-)

How quick is that?

Cheers.

[Terry Yager]

My favorite machine is one that has never been booted. It is an S-100 box that was built around 1977, and may be the world's first portable computer. The cpu card was built from a kit and the 4 slot motherboard along with a linear power supply and a fan are all tucked away neatly inside of a modified Kennedy toolbox. This homebrew system has never been completed, although I have added a 4k memory board which was also a kit. All I need now is some kinda I/O and something in a disk drive. I hope to complete this computer someday.

[Thomas Hillebrandt]

My favourite machine... Whoa!

That's really tough, because I have a few favourites among the lot. Of course, there's a whole bunch of stuff that's easily sorted out of the favourite bunch.

Anyway...A favourite is my Commodore Amiga 4000. Nothing special about it, really, 'xcept it's one of Commodores very last machines. Oh, and I use it regularly, so that obviously counts for something.

Another favourite is the Commodore 64...Nothing special about that either, but it was my first computer, got it when I was 11 years old. I have several different models now, of course, and the favourites of them would be my C64G-model, which is in regular use, and of course my SX-64, which is just too cool :roll: ...

Talking about these things, I can't avoid mentioning my Ohio Scientific Model 600, or SuperBoard II as it was also known. Mine is the rev. B from 1978 - my oldest computer as of yet. When powered up the LED lights up, but I haven't been able to hook a screen to it yet, so...

But of course, my Apple ][ europlus, my Casio FP-1000 and my Ericsson Portable PC also hold a place in my heart. Not to mention my Regnecentralen Piccoline-setup...These were the machines used in computer-class when I went to school.

[CP/M User]

"Thomas Hillebrandt" wrote in message:

> My favourite machine... Whoa!

<snip!>

> Another favourite is the "Commodore 64"...
> Nothing special about that either, but it
> was my first computer, got it when I was
> 11 years old. I have several different models
> now, of course, and the favourites of them
> would be my C64G-model, which is in regular
> use, and of course my SX-64, which is just
> too cool...

Not one of my so favourites, however you're
welcomed to your views! :-)

<snip!>

Cheers.

[barryp]

Anyway, back on topic, what is your prized posession?

I have a Horizon Ram Disk with one of my TI-99/4A systems. It's (so far) a 576KB battery backed simulated disk drive(s) which is light speed fast. I can switch on the system power strip and punch a key or two (I know what I have loaded on it) and be ready to go before the monitor lights up!

[mbbrutman]

I think that Horizon Ram Disk is a pretty neat device. If I recall correctly, 576KB is several times what a native TI-99/4A disk drive stored directly.

It's weird to think about a product like that - disk drives were invented because they were persistent, and the storage was cheaper. A RAM disk was a fairly expensive product in it's day.

[barryp]

I think that Horizon Ram Disk is a pretty neat device. If I recall correctly, 576KB is several times what a native TI-99/4A disk drive stored directly.

I have mine partitioned as a 360KB drive so I can copy a normal disk directly and the rest into another drive. I have a few more chips to add to increase the space.

The original HRD was 96KB I believe, but newer models can accommodate several MB.

[joecommodore]

I read the topic yesterday and gave it a lot of thought, and came up with two answers:

a) Prized as in if I had to give up my collection and keep one thing - it would be a Commodore 64. It is just such a great little computer, and I enjoy it the most.

b) Prized as in I am most prowd to show off to others that I have one - That would be a PET (not specific on the model except it has to be a 40 column PET). Of the computers I take to show off the PETs give me the most enjoyment from myself and others who see it. Especially the ones with the folded steel cases, the hood prop (which is on all models) sure raises an eyebrow too.

[Erik]

b) Prized as in I am most prowd to show off to others that I have one - That would be a PET (not specific on the model except it has to be a 40 column PET). Of the computers I take to show off the PETs give me the most enjoyment from myself and others who see it. Especially the ones with the folded steel cases, the hood prop (which is on all models) sure raises an eyebrow too.

I love the old PETs as well. I have an 8032 that's in really nice shape and a 2001 with the chicklet keys that is also a sight to behold. The 2001 came with a bunch of tapes and manuals, as well, which adds to it's appeal for me.

You're right, that hood prop is just cool! :D

Erik

[CP/M User]

"joecommodore" wrote in message:

Hello Joe,

> I read the topic yesterday and gave it a lot of thought,
> and came up with two answers:

> a) Prized as in if I had to give up my collection and
> keep one thing - it would be a Commodore 64. It is
> just such a great little computer, and I enjoy it the
> most.

Same could be said about me if you took Commodore
64 out & Amstrad CPC in! :-) Oh okay, I ramble on
about the Jupiter Ace, but if I had to pick which
machine out of the two it would be the Amstrad. It's
all to do with the entainment value this machine has
given be, as well as the memoies to go with it! ;-)

It's really stupid to carry on like children when it comes
to which machine is better? In my opinion were not all
that different, different machines perhaps? But if your
folks were the ones who brought you that machine
then that's all it boils it down to.

> b) Prized as in I am most prowd to show off to others
> that I have one - That would be a PET (not specific on
> the model except it has to be a 40 column PET). Of the
> computers I take to show off the PETs give me the
> most enjoyment from myself and others who see it.
> Especially the ones with the folded steel cases, the
> hood prop (which is on all models) sure raises an
> eyebrow too.

Cool! :-)

Cheers.

[switchtech]

has to be the Tandy 1000 SX. It was my first DOS machine and all that memory and speed were so impressive when I bought it new. The Tandy 1000 SX I have now is a replacement. I got silly a few years back and sold my original. That was my main computer for about five years.

I learned C and Pascal on that machine and some hints of Assembly.

Now:

My IBM PC300PL (a 400 MHz Pentium II) runs OS/2 Warp 4 and is my email and web browsing machine. The AMD K6/2 500 runs Windows 98 and is my game playing machine. And my Thinkpad 240x runs Windows 2000 and is my work horse for serious stuff.

Still I had to most fun with the Tandy 1000 SX, and once upon a time I had a Commodore 128 that was a close second.
http://users2.ev1.net/~switchtech/Images/PCMuseum/C128_T1k.GIF

[mbbrutman]

Ah, another OS/2 user/abuser. I was an early adopter - version 2.11 on a 486. Upgraded to Warp 3.0 and went all of the way to fixpak 42. It's still on my machine and I can run it, but I'm starting to forget too much.

What state is Warp 4 in? Can you get a decent browser (Mozilla?), compilers, etc? How much of the new software being made available is ported from Linux?

I always viewed OS/2 as a poor man's Unix. Back in 1994 on version 2.11 I had a fully pre-emptive multi-tasking OS with threads, a TCP/IP stack, X-Windows Server, telnet server, ftp server, a great C compiler, etc. It ran Windows 3.1 and DOS apps, and did it all at the same time on 20MB of RAM. Gracefully too. The hardware at the time was:

486-66 DX/2 with 256KB cache
20 MB RAM
Buslogic BT445S VL Bus SCSI II card
Fujitsu 400MB hard drive
ATI Graphics Ultra Pro with 2MB VRAM
1x external NEC CD-ROM
SoundBlaster 8
IBM 17P running 1280x1024 with 256 colors. ($1200 in 1994)

Believe it or not, most of the system is still running today - it's my Linux firewall now!

For a long time Linux had the same problems that OS/2 had - driver support. Linux has overcome the hurdle, and that's where I am today. I gave up on OS/2 when Win98 came out and Linux looked like it was emerging. Great OS, but a victim of circumstance ...

[switchtech]

Warp 4 added speech navigation (which I typically don't use), a menu bar, and more multimedia support . It does get a lot of programs via Linux crossovers. I believe Mozilla for OS/2 is based on the Linux code set (i'm using Mozillia 1.5b ) The last public fix pack is 15 - there is a "Subscription" fix pack 16. There are also USB drivers available via the subscription package (which I didn't opt for - so no real USB support for me). Since I bought Warp 4 in 1996, it almost qualifies as vintage!

I've deleted it from my machine from time to time, but always end up putting it back.

[coimbrap]

As for me, if I had to keep only one, it would be a CPC... I know, it was not the best machine technically speaking, but it offered the best price/performance ratio at the time. And what a pleasure to be able to program even when my parents were watching TV...

As for the most proud of, it would be the Amstrad CSD (non comercial demo set for the GX) or the Enterprise 64... But I guess that you can be proud of any machine of that time since they were all original and not responding to any standard... :P

[CP/M User]

"mbbrutman"

>Ah, another OS/2 user/abuser. I was an
>early adopter - version 2.11 on a 486.
>Upgraded to Warp 3.0 and went all of the
>way to fixpak 42. It's still on my machine
>and I can run it, but I'm starting to forget
>too much.

>What state is Warp 4 in? Can you get a
>decent browser (Mozilla?), compilers, etc?
>How much of the new software being made
>available is ported from Linux?

What's wrote with Netscape?

>I always viewed OS/2 as a poor man's Unix.

Um? What gave you that impression?
I've played with both & felt they were nothing
alike.

>Back in 1994 on version 2.11 I had a fully
>pre-emptive multi-tasking OS with threads,
>a TCP/IP stack, X-Windows Server, telnet
>server, ftp server, a great C compiler, etc.
>It ran Windows 3.1 and DOS apps, and did
>it all at the same time on 20MB of RAM.

Version 2.xx of OS/2 is so confusing to me
because in the early stages of ver 2. OS/2
only handled version 3.0 of Windows.

X-Windows Server is a 'nix thing, isn't it?
So I guess I can see where you're comming
from with the OS/2 vs Unix thing.

>Gracefully too. The hardware at the time
>was:

>486-66 DX/2 with 256KB cache
>20 MB RAM
>Buslogic BT445S VL Bus SCSI II card
>Fujitsu 400MB hard drive
>ATI Graphics Ultra Pro with 2MB VRAM
>1x external NEC CD-ROM
>SoundBlaster 8
>IBM 17P running 1280x1024 with 256 colors.
>($1200 in 1994)

Around 1995 I belive that those machines
were upgradable to 52Mb (when Win95 came
out), well maybe it wasn't for all machines.

I played with OS/2 Warp (v3) on a machine
like that, except I didn't have 20Mb (only
16), a fairly large hard disk (540 I think),
but I really didn't boost my 486 @ 66Mhz to
it full potential! :-(

Cheers.

[Terry Yager]

If I could have only one vintage machine it would be a Dimension 68000. That would be cheating tho, because it is actually 4 machines in one. In it's native mode it runs CP/M 68K, but with available co-processor boards can run programs designed for the Apple II, CP/M 80, and the IBM-PC. I really miss mine, but it has found a good home in the local computer museum, so I can visit it any time I feel like playing with it.

--T

[mbbrutman]

What's wrong with Netscape depends on the version of Netscape you are talking about. The Netscape I have on Warp is 4.7.x, and it's old enough where it doesn't display a lot of web sites correctly. It wasn't a very standards complient browser, and now that it's not current anymore people don't care if their stuff displays on it correctly anymore or not. There maybe a newer version, but I don't want the AOL branded versions. I'd rather run Mozilla.

I already mentioned why OS/2 was a good poor man's unix:

"version 2.11 I had a fully pre-emptive multi-tasking OS with threads, a TCP/IP stack, X-Windows Server, telnet server, ftp server, a great C compiler, etc"

That's my definition of a good Unix box - a good process model, a good TCP stack, and good compilers. It is very unix-like in the APIs - it just isn't multi-user, which is sad - that would have done a lot for it in the server market.

Version 2.xx of OS/2 handled version 3.x of Windows up until they added Win32 extensions. Remember the time frame - 1992 to 1994. Only Windows 3.x existed, not Win 95. And Microsoft was literally doing the API or patch of the week to Windows, which would invariably break the Win-OS/2 support in OS/2. This was dirty pool.

How far you could expand a 486 depended on the chipset, the motherboard, and your wallet. 16MB was a minimum for a usable OS/2 2.x machine. (Published spec was 8, but that would have been painful.) I got it to 20 by scavenging the memory out of my 386 box. Two years ago I took it to 32MB with four SIMMs I bought from eBay. To have 32MB in the box, that requires 8 sticks of 30 pin memory. (Each stick is 4MB in size.) This motherboard was bought in 1993 before the introduction of DIMMs. In theory 16MB SIMMs existed. However, at $40 per MB it was an expensive proposition.

[CP/M User]

"Terry Yager" wrote in message:

> If I could have only one vintage machine
> it would be a Dimension 68000. That
> would be cheating tho, because it is
> actually 4 machines in one. In it's native
> mode it runs CP/M 68K, but with available
> co-processor boards can run programs
> designed for the Apple II, CP/M 80, and
> the IBM-PC. I really miss mine, but it
> has found a good home in the local
> computer museum, so I can visit it any
> time I feel like playing with it.

Oh well, I play around with other machines
on my IBM through emulators, so I guess
that's doing the same thing! ;-)

Even my good 'ol Amstrad has had an
emulator written for it, so I guess it's not
all bad! :-)

Cheers.

[pogo]

It's hard to pick a favourite from mine - the NeXT slab wins for out-and-out cool looks (and is fun to hack code on too). The Mac Classic II is just a joy to type on, and given that I spend a lot of time writing (text, not code) it's the machine I use most. The machine I have fondest memories of is the Sinclair QL - it was the first machine that I bought for myself, with my own hard-earned cash, it served me faithfully throughout my final year at college, and I learned the ins and outs of C programming on it. I hated (still hate, in fact) the unreliable microdrives and soon added a 3.5" floppy drive to the mix, but other than that it was a top machine. Much maligned at the time, to my mind unjustifiably, but you can't release it the way Sinclair did and expect it to be taken seriously I suppose :-)