New eBay fees and feedback policies

[Sharkonwheels]

You guys check this out????

just a little smidge:

"Buyers will only be able to receive positive Feedback"

So.....how are we supposed to keep track of sucky buyers??????

http://rover.ebay.com/rover/2/0/8?loc=http://click3.ebay.com/1237385.72331.0.146137


What a crock... shows what eBay cares about


T

[Yzzerdd]

Yeah, I saw that too. I wondered if maybe it was a typo, or poor translation from the illegal immigrants eBay hires. I guess you could just leave a positive and then have nasty text. Still, why would eBay do that? Scenario:
I sell someone a nice monitor
Buyer backs out of purchase

normally I would leave a neutral and describe the buyer backed out of an item they won, but was curtious. No way I would leave a positive for that! Argh! very angering.

--Ryan

[Druid6900]

Yeah, I got the e-mail too.

If I hadn't sworn off selling on e-bay already, that would have done it.

[barythrin]

Wow.. that really sucks although I haven't seen it or read it fully yet. Unfortunately I just got screwed by *another* Dell server dropping it's hard drives out of it's RAID array. FUN! Nothing like losing terrabytes of data due to firmware bugs.

[Sharkonwheels]

2 letters for ya: HP

ProLiants kick serious arse. I've deployed HUNDREDS on cruise ships since 1997, with minimal fuss. Right now, i deploy 6 servers, plus a full MSA500 cluster (2 DL380 servers dual Xeon, 4GB RAM, 3 x 72gb per server, 14x72GB in the MSA500 array) as a Windows clustered SQL Server setup.

Rock-solid, only had to work on *one* server across, let's see...6+2=8 server per ship, 7 ships= 56 servers. I don;t know how many hundreds of drives, I;ve had mebbe 3-5 to replace last 36-42 months.

Can;t beat that...
You don;t even WANT me to start on the Dell scrap we have...


T

[Terry Yager]

Doesn't hurt me a bit, since I swore off from leaving negative feedback long ago, after learning the hard way that the 'buyer' can retaliate with negative feedback, even though they are the deadbeat.
My only negative ever was from a non-payer, for an $8.00 sale...just wasn't worth it.

--T

[Great Hierophant]

Feedback extortion worked both ways. A seller would not give feedback until a buyer gave his, then if the feedback was negative, the seller gave negative feedback even if it was unwarranted.

A buyer in normal transactions has only to pay. A seller need not ship until the buyer pays. Buyers worthy of negative feedback are usually unreasonable buyers. The solution for a seller is not to do business with that buyer again.

This policy encourages me to punish a pet peeve of mine: I will give negative feedback to any seller who did not ship at cost.

[Sharkonwheels]

Only problem with that theory, is that when you bid/bought, you agreed to the terms. If those terms were a pre-determined shipping price, it would be hypocritical to give a negative feedback, for something you knew up front.

Just my $.02


T

[carlsson]

Will eBay be more attentive to resolve unnecessary negative feedback now when it can only be one way? The other option is that a seller who gets a neutral or negative feedback refuses to give feedback in return. For buyers who already have been around for a while it doesn't matter, only for newcomers it is important to build up a track record of feedback.

It also will promote new sellers, people (like me) who until now only bought items. As long as you're only buying, your feedback is "safe", but as soon as you start to sell things, you risk getting negative feedback.

On the other hand, I realize they need to do something. I've seen sellers who are extremely bi-polar in their given feedback. For every positive feedback they receive, they return positive with a comment like "BEST EBAYER EVER". As soon as they get a neutral or negative feedback, they retaliate with a flaming red "WORST EBAYER EVER". Like, isn't there room for something inbetween BEST and WORST?

[Terry Yager]

Only problem with that theory, is that when you bid/bought, you agreed to the terms. If those terms were a pre-determined shipping price, it would be hypocritical to give a negative feedback, for something you knew up front.

Just my $.02


T

Then there's a certain Belgian, who shall remain nameless...

--T

[VintageComputerman]

There won't be a need for negative feedback any more when you also consider that as you do good in business and provide your customers with the highest standards of service, you will be rewarded by ebay placing your listings in better search positions. Re-read the ebay announcement. If your a good seller, you end up getting more business. Screw people over and no one will be able to find you.

Imo, the changes are good. ;)

[Great Hierophant]

Only problem with that theory, is that when you bid/bought, you agreed to the terms. If those terms were a pre-determined shipping price, it would be hypocritical to give a negative feedback, for something you knew up front.

Just my $.02


T

Assuming that is what it actually cost to ship the goods, yes. I do not approve of sellers charging a high shipping fee in place of a lower start bid. Shipping can frequently be adjusted based on location and service requested. A shipping fee is just that and the fees can be determined easily enough by carrier, service and destination. Since the seller has the power to refuse to ship without payment of whatever shipping fee he sees fit to charge, I see no problem of giving him negative feedback afterwards as a way to counteract the balance.

[Jorg]

Then there's a certain Belgian, who shall remain nameless...

--T

Iaintgonnasayyou who!

[Sharkonwheels]

Assuming that is what it actually cost to ship the goods, yes. I do not approve of sellers charging a high shipping fee in place of a lower start bid. Shipping can frequently be adjusted based on location and service requested. A shipping fee is just that and the fees can be determined easily enough by carrier, service and destination. Since the seller has the power to refuse to ship without payment of whatever shipping fee he sees fit to charge, I see no problem of giving him negative feedback afterwards as a way to counteract the balance.

There is no assuming...when you click "bid" or "Buy It Now" it brings up another screen, that says you agree to the terms AS STATED in the auction.
There is no room for discussion there. If you then click the button, and bid or buy, you agreed to whatever was in the auction terms - price, shipping, processing time, refund/warranty, everything.

It really is not a grey area. If the seller put $20, and you know it costs $10 to ship, by bidding/buying, you are agreeing to the $20, period. If you bid, and then don't pay, and the seller does the NPB process, you automatically cannot leave feedback for him.

I don;t see what is so hard to understand, even though I hate shipping ripoffs - if you don;t like the shipping price, find another item. That is THEIR terms, and by bidding/buying, you are agreeing to those terms.

T

[Great Hierophant]

There is no assuming...when you click "bid" or "Buy It Now" it brings up another screen, that says you agree to the terms AS STATED in the auction.
There is no room for discussion there. If you then click the button, and bid or buy, you agreed to whatever was in the auction terms - price, shipping, processing time, refund/warranty, everything.

It really is not a grey area. If the seller put $20, and you know it costs $10 to ship, by bidding/buying, you are agreeing to the $20, period. If you bid, and then don't pay, and the seller does the NPB process, you automatically cannot leave feedback for him.

I don;t see what is so hard to understand, even though I hate shipping ripoffs - if you don;t like the shipping price, find another item. That is THEIR terms, and by bidding/buying, you are agreeing to those terms.

T

I must disagree. If an auctions terms are illegal or unconscionable, I can say "I agree" all day and still not be bound. While the seller oftentimes can only provide an estimated shipping cost, I am fair to expect a refund of any overcharge. I agree to pay for the costs of shipping when I bid on an auction. That means whatever the carrier charges for shipping the item to my door plus the reasonable cost of shipping materials. It does not include the seller's time to pack it and take it to the carrier. The price for the item is the winning bid amount, buy-it-now amount or the offered amount. It is not that plus whatever the seller wants to pad the shipping costs with. That is an unfair and extortionate way of doing business, official eBay policy notwithstanding, and any seller who does it that way deserves negative feedback.

[Sharkonwheels]

Noone said anything about an "estimate"

An agreement, is an agreement, whether you like it or not. You signed it, you agreed.

period. There IS NO ROOM for discussion on that.

I don;t know what part of the world you're from, but by your statement, that means I can send a lower payment to my mortgage company, because I don't agree with the interest rate :confused::confused:

Attached is a screenshot of hitting the confirmation button where eBay PLAINLY MAKES IT CLEAR that it is A CONTRACT!

Let's let that sink in...

In many states, if you did not complete the transaction, the seller could even hit the credit bureaus on you, file for collection, etc... There are even collection agencies now,
that go after people that do what you do - bid, and then back out. Guess what? That now gets sent to collection agencies specializing in online/eBay sales, and if not collected, get reported to credit bureaus. Snoop around on eBay, and you will see, there are sellers who do this.

Not only that, if you do *NOT* complete the transaction according to the terms, the seller will file a Non Paying Bidder complaint, which AUTOMATICALLY STOPS YOU from being able to leave *ANY* feedback for the seller, WHATSOEVER.

I don't know where you got the notion that you could agree, and commit to a contract, and change it's terms afterwards - the world doesn;t work that way.

If you don't like the terms, move on to a different auction - period.
I really don't know *ANYONE* who would actually agree with your position, because it makes no logical, legal, or even common sense.
If you know the shipping rate they put is a rip-off, don't bid/buy!
That simple - seller owes you NOTHING.

A contract is a contract - eBay TELLS you this when you confirm to bid/buy, and that means you agree to ALL THE SELLERS TERMS, not what terms you invent afterwards.

This is my last posting on this, because:
1) it's going nowhere
2) It could only go downhill
3) makes absolutely no sense at all, whatsoever. Rules are rules, period. You can;t change them after you agreed, just because you want to.


T

[mbbrutman]

I'm not a lawyer, but Tony seems to be correct.

If you don't agree with the terms, don't enter into the contract. A very very bad contract might be unenforceable, but somebody overcharging on eBay by a factor of 2 is not going to fit the definition of a 'very very bad' contract in any jurisdiction. If the terms were disclosed up front and nobody coerced you, then you willing agreed to the terms and are bound by them.

[rmay635703]

My mother has bought several book sets with $19.95 S&H you know damn well that isn't the cost of ship. (most legit companies overcharge on ship)

I have never understood the folks that hate high shipping and handling as shipping and handling is meaningless only total cost matters.

The only thing that matters is whether or not the total is an acceptable price for the item, I bought a no name motherboard CPU combo years ago for $1.05+$69.99 S&H off ebay, yet I did not care because the lowest cost on that paticular bundled athlon CPU exceeded the total cost including the S&H.

Many times I've found the listings with the HIGHEST shipping cost scare away people incapable of basic addition and I end up getting it for a lower overall price than the same items with normal shipping charges.

So I guess the only people high shipping and handling hurts are people that are too dumb to be able to add and either don't bid out of fear or bid too much because they can't add.

I also hear a lot of people complain that the shipping makes it too expensive and I wonder why did they bid? Would they have bid if the initial bid was high and shipping low? If these sellers were forced to charge actual shipping they would just increase the initial bid and due to the double fees resulting charge even more.

My $0.02

[Unknown_K]

I look at the overall price before bidding on anything. Sellers pad shipping because ebay does not get a cut. The only issue I have with $.99 items with $20 shipping is that in the case they warrenty it for DOA and it is DOA they refund $.99 of the purchase so the warrenty is worthless.

I agree if they say $90 for shipping for a bag of M&M's don't bid, if you did then pay up.

[carlsson]

I read that eBay is analyzing the results of the detailed seller feedback introduced last year. Out of the four categories: item as described, communcation, posting time and shipping fees; the last one generally is where sellers score worst. eBay will start promoting sellers with good feedback, or cut off those below a certain rating. I also believe they will begin to bash harder against sellers who sell $0.99 items with $19.99 fake shipping fees, as eBay loses provision like Unknown K writes. Or perhaps eBay will begin to charge provision from reported shipping fees as well.. hm, that would be unfair to those who don't charge extra.

Basically, I think it is a moral dilemma. As a buyer, you feel cheated if the seller overcharges you on something, even if the total is less than it otherwise should've been. Of course I also pick the item that costs me the least in total money, but if there are two identical items for the same total cost, of which one is $2 + $10 shipping and the other is $7 + $5 shipping, I would probably buy the latter. :twisted:

Edit: Another scenario is when the seller has different shipping costs for various parts of the world. Some sellers list their item as available worldwide, but seem to try to avoid international shipping by slapping on a ridiculous shipping fee. In that case, bidding is unfair compared to those living nearby who can have use of a cheaper S&H. I do realize actual shipping costs are different if you send an item within the country, to your neighbour countries or overseas, but some use this prohibitably.

On another forum, a guy in the UK was trying to bid on an unboxed Oric Atmos located in France, i.e. across the channel. The seller had given a shipping quote of 60 Euros or so, which should be enough to ship 30 kg or more to the UK. Shipping within France was according to normal fees, so this seller clearly didn't want his precious computer to leave the country. A such case makes people believe international shipping from France is expensive, which generally is not the case if the seller just looks around for options. I have also seen cartridge games from sellers in Spain where they ask 20 Euros S&H per loose cartridge, weighs less than 100 gram each. Shipping within Spain then is only a few Euros.

On the other hand, the seller loses business by doing so. Either you are afraid of doing business internationally and shouldn't list your item as such, or you should try to be as fair as possible and get a big number of buyers who have a bid race on your items.

[Yzzerdd]

I looked over the document(OK, only like, 1/4 of it, and here is what really ticks me off:


Safe Payments
To help ensure more buyers are protected, in some cases we'll require sellers to offer either PayPal or a merchant credit card to customers.

For listings in riskier categories, like computers and cell phones
If the seller has 5% or more dissatisfied customers
If the seller has less than 100 Feedback

In a small number of cases (fewer than 5% of all payments on eBay), PayPal will hold payment funds until either the buyer has left positive Feedback or 21 days have passed without a claim.

What the hell!?! People like me who don't often use eBay are put in quite a mess! I use PayPal already(I really do hate them, though) so it isn't a problem for me. But there are so many people out there who don't want to get over their fears and not use it. Many people will be turned away(including sellers) due to the requirement of PayPal. Another problem is, if you have PayPal, you either have to a)have a bank account or b)do ALL of your spending online for your PayPal profits. Another problem is the less than 100 feedback policy. Me just being a commoner on eBay(occasionally buying and selling on eBay) I am required to use PayPal. And all I ever sell IS computers! Furthermore, if I understand correctly, the new search engine will screw me over with the DSR thing. It is my understanding that becuase I am only at 63 feedback(visible) I won't appear in the first few pages unless someone is filtering using the "ending soonest to ending latest" option. But now instead of that being the default, the default will be how high your "DSRs" are. All the people on eBay with thousands of feedback will far surpass me with only 63 feedback, and I will thus be banished to the end of the line. eBay, if you are listening, you are about to have a very powerful enemy...

--Ryan
(offtopic) PS, I was doing some snooping online. Terry, does this look familiar?:
"The longest word in the English language is: Pneumonoultramicroscopicsilicavolcanoconiosis, a lung disease suffered by coal miners from breathing in sillica dust." [link] (http://www.nightswithalicecooper.com/forum/printer_friendly_posts.asp?TID=4817)

[Vlad]

eBay, if you are listening, you are about to have a very powerful enemy...


Woah there ball of fire. I never did trust eBay at all, there are other options. Never had any issues with PayPal though.



(offtopic) PS, I was doing some snooping online. Terry, does this look familiar?:
"The longest word in the English language is: Pneumonoultramicroscopicsilicavolcanoconiosis, a lung disease suffered by coal miners from breathing in sillica dust." [link] (http://www.nightswithalicecooper.com/forum/printer_friendly_posts.asp?TID=4817)Actually its Taumatawhakatangihangakoauauotamateaturipukakapiki maungahoronukupokaiwhenuakitanatahu

(the forum will force that space to be there.)

-Vlad

[tezza]

Actually its Taumatawhakatangihangakoauauotamateaturipukakapiki maungahoronukupokaiwhenuakitanatahu

(the forum will force that space to be there.)

-Vlad

Hey, that place is just 1 hour from where I live :) .

Honestly!

[rmay635703]

Sellers pad shipping because ebay does not get a cut. The only issue I have with $.99 items with $20 shipping is that in the case they warrenty it for DOA and it is DOA they refund $.99 of the purchase so the warrenty is worthless.

I agree if they say $90 for shipping for a bag of M&M's don't bid, if you did then pay up.

Actually all of those statements aren't true.

1. Ebay does get a profit off most transactions even if they don't occur on ebay because of paypal, 90% of transactions go through paypal in relation to ebay. (and many online transactions go through paypal even if not related 3% at last count which is huge)

2. Warrantees on ebay are almost ALWAYS useless, if they refund the shipping and don't require you to send it back that is about the only time the warranty is even worth considering unless your talking something above $500 which most ebay items are not.

This gets back to the format of ebay, if you want a real warranty that will not cost you money if it doesn't work, you basically have to buy locally, which I do on everything important that is physically available nearby.

If its impossible to find I put up with the ebay BS. Due to ebays format of dealing with distant folks selling oddball crap much like a flee market you have to realize that there probably is not a real warranty and that you can't really see the item. Most of the trouble is usually with powersellers who sell defective "untested" items at a fixed price much higher than it should be.

Ebay more and more is catering to large entities selling items that really don't belong on ebay like new ipods, new clothing, new computers and other items that really don't belong there and that is were most of their troubles come from.

It would be nice if ebay could go back to a primarily small seller dominated community as opposed to the power seller forcing useless crapola with deceptive descriptions. This is the reason why many auctions now all start higher and usually end with one bid or none, its because companies are trying to make ebay into a real retail venue as opposed to an AUCTION selling communitity. Many auctions might as well be fixed price and aren't really auctions anymore.

Please also note that ebays new rules by getting rid of your feedback after fixed times and removing for other reasons mainly benefits power sellers and furthermore they will be the only ones with a notable positive level of feedback. My earned 300+ positives with no negatives will go down the tubes in 6mo to a year. This means high volume sellers, even those with somewhat mediocre feedback will still be ahead of the small guy who doesn't sell enough to keep up with the removal of feedback.

[Unknown_K]

Ebay does not get the cut it should get if all the money is in "shipping" fees.

A warrenty for small items where shipping would be a small fraction of the total amount is worth it even if you do have to ship the item back. If the seller pads the shipping to get his profet then that warrenty doesn't work (and sometimes I don't even bother bidding).

Even with the power sellers there are still plenty of small time sellers offering items I cannot find anywhere else at prices that are very reasonable.

[rmay635703]

Ebay does not get the cut it should get if all the money is in "shipping" fees.

LoL, ebay should only get about $0.20 for listing regardless of value of the item (honestly free listings make more sense and charge it on the end when it sells) and about 5% or less total final value fee (including paypal) with a few exceptions. At least they did get these rates if you go back 9 years. Furthermore paypal was free for individuals for quite a while.

I would say, like all web venues ebay should base its final value fee percentage on the level of traffic to your listing. This would really mix things up. The real cost of most listings that receive under 50 hits (which is most small time sellers) is very very minimal to ebay (under 1 cent) and the storage is also very minimal so the final value fee ebay deserves for so little traffic is also very minimal if anything.

Charge $$ where it is due. Many sellers are getting very poor traffic on ebay, such that you can list a valuable item for $0.99 and not even get a bid if it is the least unusual. This is due to the volume of crap listings flooding ebay and a downturn in the overall market. If ebay doesn't provide real traffic to your listings they should not get paid the same as one that receives thousands of hits.

I can remember going through ALL the listings in a category one by one to find the oddball ones and get a deal, that is just about impossible due to all the duplicate crap listings flooding most of ebay. And it means I am missing deals as are others because many folks do not list their auction with good keywords. (furthermore those sellers are hurt by loosing my business) Also I used to find odd deals I would have never look for that way, now it simply takes too much time to even try.

A warrenty for small items where shipping would be a small fraction of the total amount is worth it even if you do have to ship the item back. If the seller pads the shipping to get his profet then that warrenty doesn't work (and sometimes I don't even bother bidding).


The problem is most items are not small and the real shipping is not a fraction. Many times low cost items aka $10 or less really do cost $5 or $6 to ship, especially UPS (why I don't send through them) Most of the items I buy are large outdated units that actually cost much more to ship than the bid is. My wax thermal printers are a good example of that 85lbs but they aren't worth much (if anything really), I still need them and bid but very few people in the entire world are willing to even buy one now that there are alternate technologies out there.

Even with the power sellers there are still plenty of small time sellers offering items I cannot find anywhere else at prices that are very reasonable.

I agree, too bad its getting harder to find them.

Really the only people I buy through are small sellers if I can, problem is many oddities I use are no longer around to get from joe average. Furthermore listings from normal people are getting harder to browse for now that there are so many crapola listings flooding all searches from power sellers. Also i've found the most reasonable people to deal with when there is a problem are the folks that do not state any warranty at all. They are usually honest and forgiving, those that have their warranty spelled out usually are impossible to deal with (usually don't respond to email either) Furthermore when I buy items I don't realy expect a warranty and a bid as such, if more people would follow this there would be fewer issues.

It really is too bad ebay doesn't provide the ability to filter your searches and browsing of its site to sellers with under 10 items (or a number you choose) up for sale at the same time. And filter out power sellers. Personally that would be the best improvement they could make to their site. Too often are ebay searches looking like google searches with lots of advertisement BS from places you don't want to look at. I really like the not ipod not microsoft listings

I've dealt with them all on ebay from small to large and I know for certain that if you are relying on a warranty from something shipped, even from online sites like newegg you are bound to end up dissappointed. That has been proven to me many times.

If everyone would bid more conservatively knowing that online warranties are not very usefull there would probably be better deals for everyone.

I guess like many I just have a love/hate relationship with ebay, I really wish an alternative website would go up that could compete and start giving ebay real competition.

Cheers
Ryan

[Unknown_K]

I have found many deals on ebay that are so good I cannot find anything comperable anywhere else. Some items I collect are rarely found anywhere else either.

Some power sellers do get some cool items they have no idea what they are that I want, but mostly it is small time sellers just raiding the garage and selling things they don't want trashed that works for me.

I have better luck finding rare items on ebay then of forums for that type of equipment.

I do try to avoid ebay for the bulky systems because of the padded shipping charges.

[dabra08]

It is a new ebay alternative online auction site for sellers who are tired of paying huge fees. We only charge 15cents per listing and no closing fees. Unique custom built website is unlike any other auction site. http://www.elfingo.com

[Half-Saint]

This site was either designed in the mid-nineties or it's a fake?

Cheers
SainT

[Sharkonwheels]

Looks like a reject from a high-school web design class.

Me thinks someone needs FrontPage....


T